[9mm_fan]

each Manu created by Brahma has a span of 71 Mahayugas meaning (71 times all the 4 yugas). And if we go by Geethacharya - sambhavami yuge yuge... it means the cycle is repeated endlessly.... and there are 14 manus in the lifespan of Bramha...so it is a never ending cycle....

[brraverishhh]

I agree with some of the statements that it is hard to draw a direct parallel between the science and the puranas. We can only interpolate and be happy with that. A few points I would like to make:

1. The big bang is not just a "concept", just like the electron is not just a concept. Of course it is a concept, but there is also evidence behind the theory. Likewise, there is evidence for the big bang: it is the cosmic background radiation. Please see What evidence supports the big bang theory

The big bang was an unproven theory before this radiation was discovered.

2. Regarding varaha avatar, the nearest thing I can think of is how the earth was formed from a cosmic soup of gas and dust. Maybe the solidified Earth was languishing in the bottom of this ocean until Lord Vishnu pulled it out!

[LottiFurmann]

1. The big bang is not just a "concept", just like the electron is not just a concept. Of course it is a concept, but there is also evidence behind the theory. Likewise, there is evidence for the big bang: it is the cosmic background radiation. Please see What evidence supports the big bang theory

Acc. to VP, "Purusha (spirit) is the first form, of the supreme; next proceeded two other forms, the discrete and indiscrete; and Kála (time) was the last." Pradhana is the indiscrete ocean, I guess, may be the equivalent of the Milky-Ocean or the Primordial Soup. Then, Vishnu disturbed the equilibrium (primal-Soup) into the 24 principles and qualities for the discrete/elemental-forms. VP explains it to be an expanded egg or bubble (before big-bang). After the bang, we have the discrete form of universe with forms (prakriti).

I was just wondering that after each Mahapralaya when the cosmos goes into Dissolution mode then when the next cycle of creation starts..where do we begin? Vedas are Apaurusheya/eternal, hence the process of creation, the duration/order of creation, the means of spiritual progress , the details of materials [herbs, foods, animals, varna] etc. should be valid forever. After every kalpa or 14 manvantras [ a day of Brahma], seems lie the lower 3 lokas, go through accidental dissolution and recreated in next kalpa. After 100 years of Brahma, the whole creation will dissolve subtly into the primal ocean/crude matter. Acc. to VP, many such lives of Brahma are passed. The positions of devas ruling the lokas, planets, natures must be titles, they advance as the time passes, and so all of us. But, the aggregate of dharna-bhuta jnanam (consciousness) will be considered for promotion, than just advancement of one part of material knowledge/science.

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

I would also like to address two pertinent issues raised by questioners of the big bang:

1. If the big bang marked the beginning of everything, what was there before that?
2. If what we see/perceive is the universe, what is there outside the universe?

The answers are of course not definitive, but the current arguments hinge on non-linearity.

We will only think of beginning and end if we view time as linear. However it time is really curved like a circle, the end is really the beginning and the beginning the end.

Similarly we may think of all space as a cosmic bubble which is expanding (this is actually experimentally observed). There need not be anything outside as new space is being created inside in a continuous fashion without taking anything from outside.

Now question for the members: is God part of this universe or outside?

[Paul Bunyan]

Dear Dr Renuka

Clawed my way back on board this austere forum. For over a decade now, I have been into researching into what I
term "The History of the Future" - The Bhavishya Puranam - many fake and corrupted versions, even translated into
English are available. I cannot say with authenticity that we have found the real thing. Finding the palm leaves and getting them transcribed is a real task. Symbolism and seemingly deliberate encoding makes the jigsaw puzzle all the more complicated. Everything is written in 'past tense' - even some of the major, well-known events such as the advent of Gauthama the Budha, Jesus the Christ and Mohammed the Prophet have been written about, long long before these actually occurred and noted in recorded history.

Since someone mentioned Kali Yugam, Maha Pralayam etc - here's the Bhavishya Puranam's take on TIME:

A small extract - I am sure you know these already - just a recap:


Time: as defined in "The History of the Future" - if you have the time / care to read it :


The smallest unit of time is nimesha. This is the amount of time it takes to blink. Fifteen nimeshas makes
one kastha and thirty kasthas are one kala. Thirty kalas make one muhurtha and thirty muhurthas make
one day. Thirty days make one month and each month of divided into two lunar fortnights - shuklapaksha
and krishnapaksha .Six months make one ayana and two ayanas make one year. Three hundred and sixty
human years are equivalent to one year for the gods.


The lengths of the four yugas [eras] are defined in terms of years of the gods and not in terms of human years.
Satya yuga lasts for 4000 years, Treta yuga lasts for 3000 years, Dwapara yuga lasts for 2000 years and Kali
yuga lasts for 1000 years - this adds up to 10,000 divine years. The sandhyas and sandhyamshas are the
intervening periods between the yugas and these add up to 2000 divine years. Thus the four yugas taken
together last for twelve thousand divine years.


A kalpa has fourteen manvantaras. In each manvantara the cycle of four yugas occurs seventy one times.
Each manvantara is ruled by a Manu. There have been six manvantaras so far .
This is the seventh - ruled by Vaivashvatha Manu presently. One kalpa corresponds to one day for Brahma.


The six manus, whose manvantaras have passed are 1 . Swayambhuva, 2 . Svarochasha, 3 . Outtami,
4 . Tamasa, 5 . Raivatha and 6 . Chakshusha.


The seven manus, whose manvantaras are to follow the current Vaivashvatha Manvantara:
1 . Savarni Manu, 2 . Dakshasavarni Manu, 3 . Brahmasavarni Manu, 4 . Dharmasavarni Manu
5 . Savarna Manu, 6 . Rouchya Manu and 7 . Bhoutya Manu .


The Bhavishya Puranam is written in past tense - what is zapping is that the advent and lives of great and world-famous
personalities over the centuries such as Gouthama the Budha, Jesus Christ and Prophet Mohammed [ to name few ] are all
written in past tense - not as a prediction or or calculation or a foresight into the future, long long [ yugas why, maybe kalpas ]
before such events actually occurred [ in recorded history ] !

I think this is sufficient boredom, I've fed you for the day.


I shall mail you the verses [ with transcripts ] pertaining to Mohammed the Prophet, Jesus the Christ, birth and spread of new
religions etc if you are interested and can view and imbibe things from a neutral, unbiased, unprejudiced mind without any
pre-conceived notions or even a judgemental frame of mind.


Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

[Slonopotam845]

Now question for the members: is God part of this universe or outside?

Dear Biswa,

God is beyond anything..so technically even beyond the Universe.
Its kind of hard to try to imagine what beyond the universe means.
Everything is contained in God yet He is beyond everything.

[Slonopotam845]

Dear Dr Renuka

Clawed my way back on board this austere forum. For over a decade now, I have been into researching into what I
term "The History of the Future" - The Bhavishya Puranam - many fake and corrupted versions, even translated into
English are available. I cannot say with authenticity that we have found the real thing. Finding the palm leaves and getting them transcribed is a real task. Symbolism and seemingly deliberate encoding makes the jigsaw puzzle all the more complicated. Everything is written in 'past tense' - even some of the major, well-known events such as the advent of Gauthama the Budha, Jesus the Christ and Mohammed the Prophet have been written about, long long before these actually occurred and noted in recorded history.

Since someone mentioned Kali Yugam, Maha Pralayam etc - here's the Bhavishya Puranam's take on TIME:

A small extract - I am sure you know these already - just a recap:


Time: as defined in "The History of the Future" - if you have the time / care to read it :


The smallest unit of time is nimesha. This is the amount of time it takes to blink. Fifteen nimeshas makes
one kastha and thirty kasthas are one kala. Thirty kalas make one muhurtha and thirty muhurthas make
one day. Thirty days make one month and each month of divided into two lunar fortnights - shuklapaksha
and krishnapaksha .Six months make one ayana and two ayanas make one year. Three hundred and sixty
human years are equivalent to one year for the gods.


The lengths of the four yugas [eras] are defined in terms of years of the gods and not in terms of human years.
Satya yuga lasts for 4000 years, Treta yuga lasts for 3000 years, Dwapara yuga lasts for 2000 years and Kali
yuga lasts for 1000 years - this adds up to 10,000 divine years. The sandhyas and sandhyamshas are the
intervening periods between the yugas and these add up to 2000 divine years. Thus the four yugas taken
together last for twelve thousand divine years.


A kalpa has fourteen manvantaras. In each manvantara the cycle of four yugas occurs seventy one times.
Each manvantara is ruled by a Manu. There have been six manvantaras so far .
This is the seventh - ruled by Vaivashvatha Manu presently. One kalpa corresponds to one day for Brahma.


The six manus, whose manvantaras have passed are 1 . Swayambhuva, 2 . Svarochasha, 3 . Outtami,
4 . Tamasa, 5 . Raivatha and 6 . Chakshusha.


The seven manus, whose manvantaras are to follow the current Vaivashvatha Manvantara:
1 . Savarni Manu, 2 . Dakshasavarni Manu, 3 . Brahmasavarni Manu, 4 . Dharmasavarni Manu
5 . Savarna Manu, 6 . Rouchya Manu and 7 . Bhoutya Manu .


The Bhavishya Puranam is written in past tense - what is zapping is that the advent and lives of great and world-famous
personalities over the centuries such as Gouthama the Budha, Jesus Christ and Prophet Mohammed [ to name few ] are all
written in past tense - not as a prediction or or calculation or a foresight into the future, long long [ yugas why, maybe kalpas ]
before such events actually occurred [ in recorded history ] !

I think this is sufficient boredom, I've fed you for the day.


I shall mail you the verses [ with transcripts ] pertaining to Mohammed the Prophet, Jesus the Christ, birth and spread of new
religions etc if you are interested and can view and imbibe things from a neutral, unbiased, unprejudiced mind without any
pre-conceived notions or even a judgemental frame of mind.


Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

Dear sir,

Sure I am interested..you can send me the transcripts..I read anything.

renu

[TorryJens]

Each yugam has SANDHAI prior to start and SANDHYAMSAM after the yugam. Period of this is different for different yugams. For Kaliyugam SANDHAI and SANDHYANSAM is 100 divine years (36000 human years) each. There is PRALAYA after each yugam. Sandhyamsam may be the closure priod of a yugam and SANDHAI is the start-up phase of the yugam. After each Manvantara there is a SANDHI equivalent of 4800 divine years (4800*360 human years). Next manu is created by Brahma during this period. What remains after each pralaya when the entire world is submerged in water and what gets created afresh and what happens after each manvantara and kalpa is not known.
Our scientific knowledge is limited as we saw in the recent prediction of Tsunami after an earthquake which never took place... post mortem of this people give a different theory to say why Tsunami did not occur this time.
Kirankumar

[doctorzlo]

1. If the big bang marked the beginning of everything, what was there before that?
2. If what we see/perceive is the universe, what is there outside the universe?

1. Acc. to Vedas, SAT/Self alone existed in the beginning. Even from Purusha Sukta (Rig veda), Purusha himself is the sacrifice and everything sprang from Him. The first subtle/indiscrete/insentient PradhAna (meaning foremost) was 'co-existent' with the Purusha (says VP). Matter cannot agitate on its own to create gross forms or expand/Big Bang. Thus, Purusha/Intelligent Self is the cause for the big-bang, and the Primal Matter cannot exist independent of Him. All the avatars, are the will/power of the Lord to bring about the gross forms/lokas.

VP (Vishnu Purana) says "To Him, whose faculty to create the universe abides in, but a part of the ten-millionth part of Him", such is His might and will. A mere matter/jiva helpless and dependent on Him, cannot be the First cause of creation, nor can become Brahman in Svarupa/Glorious Nature.

The Avyakta (unevolved) was contained in Him, and He became the Self of all to sustain the creation. So, He is both transcendental (beyond/separate abode), and immanent(antaryami) of the creation.

2. The Vishnu loka is 3 part and the creation is only 1 part of that the whole wealth. If we understand the vedic concept of Time, we may comprehend the vastness of space and the Glory of that Supreme Person.

1 nimesha of Vishnu is 180 years of Brahma, 1 day of Brahma is 1000 Maha yuga, 1 maha yuga is 12000 deva years/pole star (dhruva on whose axis the solar system moves), 1 deva year is 360 human years.

A Maha pralaya is just one minute of Vishnu's time (a wink of His eye). Even, when Brahma's life-long yoga on Vishnu would look void, our past-time devotion would be considered even more pathetic!!

As the dissolutions are incremental, for each day of Brahma, the lower 3 lokas go through cycles of creation, while the upper lokas still remain. Time may be circular, within these manvantaras/great ages small crunch. But, Brahma life continues linearly.

At the end of Brahma's life (Big Crunch), the Supreme Person time (every minute) is very still, it is still linear but infinite. There would be many such Brahma's and Brahma's creation/kalpas. That 1/4 th part material creation is temporary, whereas the vaikunta abode of Vishnu (beyond the paar-kadal/material universe) is infinite and it is bright day always there and never sets!!

[Big A]

After the Mahapralaya all jIvAtma's are given what is called as a kalpAnta mokSha. Then the new Creation Cycle starts. It is almost a rerun (which means in broad essentials) though there may be differences in how things will shape up. The details may be different in each of the new creation kalpa. Like for instance in this kalpa if Panini was the final enduring Grammarian, may be someone else would be in the next. But the "evolution" of jIvAtma's will start from the beginning.
In this there is however one difference as seen by "some" seers say Jain seers or say all the dwaitis who hold that jIvAtma's are eternally "different". In that case those who could not attain mokSha by kalpAnta will restart their jouney in the next kalps. Since jIvatmas are infinite the sR^ShTi chakra will go on for ever...

[Lillie_Steins]

Each yugam has SANDHAI prior to start and SANDHYAMSAM after the yugam. Period of this is different for different yugams. For Kaliyugam SANDHAI and SANDHYANSAM is 100 divine years (36000 human years) each. There is PRALAYA after each yugam. Sandhyamsam may be the closure priod of a yugam and SANDHAI is the start-up phase of the yugam. After each Manvantara there is a SANDHI equivalent of 4800 divine years (4800*360 human years). Next manu is created by Brahma during this period. What remains after each pralaya when the entire world is submerged in water and what gets created afresh and what happens after each manvantara and kalpa is not known.
Our scientific knowledge is limited as we saw in the recent prediction of Tsunami after an earthquake which never took place... post mortem of this people give a different theory to say why Tsunami did not occur this time.
Kirankumar

As veda says - AAkashath vayuhu (vayu from space) vayor Agne (agne from vayu), Agner Apaahah (water from agni), Apah prithivi (earth from water), prithvir oshadayah (herbs..trees from earth)..!!
creation cycle starts graound zero and goes ON and ON.....!!!

Kirankumar

[Big A]

Mahapralaya- excellent discussion is taking place. I am thrilled; what a high class topic and what a high class of thought. since we believe in re-birth, there should be life after Mahapralaya. In fact, after Kaliyug, to purify the world Mahapralaya will take place and then everything will start anew.

[Paul Bunyan]

As veda says - AAkashath vayuhu (vayu from space) vayor Agne (agne from vayu), Agner Apaahah (water from agni), Apah prithivi (earth from water), prithvir oshadayah (herbs..trees from earth)..!!
creation cycle starts graound zero and goes ON and ON.....!!!

Kirankumar

Dear Sir,

Ground Zero??? Zero is Sunya.
Can everything come out from Nothing?

Dont you think creation starts back from Square One?
Cos you see its Ekam Advaitam Brahman...there has always been One and it will always be One.
Two is just One occurring Twice.

So for all practical purposes its back to Square One for us.


P.S I get what you meant in the post you wrote..just wanted to play around with words.

[Big A]

Dear Sir,

Ground Zero??? Zero is Sunya.
Can everything come out from Nothing?

Dont you think creation starts back from Square One?
Cos you see its Ekam Advaitam Brahman...there has always been One and it will always be One.
Two is just One occurring Twice.

So for all practical purposes its back to Square One for us.


P.S I get what you meant in the post you wrote..just wanted to play around with words.

===============================================
Akasham Akandam.... God is aroopi...
he is in everything but he is aroopi....
this is the greatness of God the creator
he can come out of nothing... I mean suniyam but command the entire cosmos.
as veda says Akashath vayuhu... where from akasha... something out of nothing.

Still I appreciate your wordplay.
Kirankumar
================================================== ====

[softy54534]

Kirankumar,

Akasham Akandam.... God is aroopi... Akasham Akandam - can u pl. give the ref? How does that suggest or prove 'God is a-roopi/formless' ?

Space has properties like dimensions/ boundaries, can be contained, can contain many things, pervasive etc. Plus, Space is the substratum for everything that exists. Anything that has properties is a Substance/entity that is existing, real and concrete and hence cannot be called "nothing" or "unreal"!!

Definition of Substance and Reals

he is in everything but he is aroopi.... How do you know that? Though Lord is pervasive in everything, He still appeared in various forms. When Nrusimha came out of the pillar, He appeared in a fierce form. When VarAha appeared out of that churned matter, He was humongous. So, How can you assume He is formless??

this is the greatness of God the creator If you mean 'invisibility is Greatness', then the microbes are great too!

he can come out of nothing... I mean suniyam but command the entire cosmos.
Acc. to Vedas, "HE/The Intelligent SELF/SAT alone existed in the beginning and HE created many". So, HE did not come from anything or nothing, but everything that exists created out of Him. !!

Are your disproving vedas to prove some illogical 'Suniyam theory'?

as veda says Akashath vayuhu... where from akasha... something out of nothing. 'Akashath vayuhu' means 'Vayu(air) emanates from Akasha(ether/space)', how did 'nothing' come into this picture?

[Lillie_Steins]

Akasham Akandam - can u pl. give the ref? How does that suggest or prove 'God is a-roopi/formless' ?

Space has properties like dimensions/ boundaries, can be contained, can contain many things, pervasive etc. Plus, Space is the substratum for everything that exists. Anything that has properties is a Substance/entity that is existing, real and concrete and hence cannot be called "nothing" or "unreal"!!




Answer to your first query :One of the Panch boothsthalam is Chidambaram. Even though we worship Nataraja there it is AKASHAM which is GOD. We cannot confine him to any particular form. We give physical form (we have several of them) for our own convenience as if someone says you worship akasham it would be difficult for us as normal mortals. The other panchaboothasthalam is Thiruvannamalai. Agni which is God there eventhough we see/worship Arunachala. THis is again for our own convenience.


Space cannot be confined by our limited understanding of cosmos. THe bigger the telescopes you install the bigger it becomes. you find many more things. these are in the space but not space. there is no boundary for akasham
and hence it is akandam.

How do you know that? Though Lord is pervasive in everything, He still appeared in various forms. When Nrusimha came out of the pillar, He appeared in a fierce form. When VarAha appeared out of that churned matter, He was humongous. So, How can you assume He is formless??

Pancha maha boothas which are basis for the universe is GOD. He can come in anyform from anywhere out of aksham (wherein in aksham.???) from thin air...(vayu... where in vayu..??) and GOD can also dissolve/disappear into akasham or other without a trace.... Vedas clearly state he is formless....

If you mean 'invisibility is Greatness', then the microbes are great too!


Greatness of GOD comes as he is part of everything still aroopi.... microbes are not part of everything....

Acc. to Vedas, "HE/The Intelligent SELF/SAT alone existed in the beginning and HE created many". So, HE did not come from anything or nothing, but everything that exists created out of Him. !!

Are your disproving vedas to prove some illogical 'Suniyam theory'?



'Akashath vayuhu' means 'Vayu(air) emanates from Akasha(ether/space)', how did 'nothing' come into this picture?[/QUOTE]

What i mean here is normally we look for source of every thing. when you say akashath vayuhu... where in akasham vayu is generated.....??!!