[softy54534]

dear renukaji
My point was that those in India do have more opportunity for upgradation than in other part of the country. we neednot divide ourself in chathurvarna in this holy land of bharath. I doagree that the gunas vary individual to individual. but the scope is more here in bharath than in any other part of world.
regarding the question of others please treat me as a lay man

I do agree with your point of view Shri kr subramanian...

The Karma concepts belongs to Hinduism of Bharath, that is applicable to all Hindus, in fact to the whole lot of Human species. Bharath is a PunyaBhoomi & KarmBhoomi, the folks of which were been guided by many of the God's incarnations and sages. From North to South and from East to West of Bharath we have many Divya Deshams, JothiLingams and many temples of Gods and Goddesses that all have relevancy with many epic stories, depicting incarnations and the messages for the humans, to guide them fulfilling their Karma.

The sense of moral goodness and righteousness alone can help we humans to work our Karma to the best of our honesty and refine our soul towards purification so as to work towards liberation.

These values are highly instilled in this Karma Bhoomi of Bharath and there exists high spirituality and the premises to perform them with all our Bhakthi and Shraddah. These spiritual premises in Bharath keeps reminding us the values of virtues and the need to perform penance in true spirit. Guides us and helps us to be calm, at piece, in unity and in harmony with the sense of humility, humanity, Love and compassion within the borders and across the Globe.

So many Gods and Goddesses; so many legendary epics with powerful messages for human kind; so many mantras, slokas and Vedic systems of performing spirituality. So many are the ways and means to tap the positive vibrations and experience the joy of mesmerizing spirituality.

A complete and complex pack of Spiritual Wisdom that stimulates the complex Karma of the complex humans.

Bharath is a place of complex diversity in all the aspects of God's creation that has inbuilt concept called Hinduism and strongly emphasis on Unity in Diversity on this Earth of human survival.


जननी जन्मभूमिश्च स्वर्गादपि गरीयसी

Janani JanmaBhoomischa SwargAdhapi GarEEyasI

- Mother and motherland are superior to Heaven

This is what Lord Rama told to his brother Lakshmana after killing Ravana and handed over the captured Golden Kingdom of Lanka to Vibhishana, stating, even this Gold Lanka does not appeal to him.

MERA BHARATH MAHAAN

[9mm_fan]

I doubt it. Humans may not be united even under such circumstances. In fact, such circumstances would show more of the ugly face of human behaviours. To save their own skins, even if it is only for few minutes longer, humans would not hesitate to put others in risk. Remember, it just takes one person to betray 100s of his/her clan.

Yes you are right..the Etthapans!!!

[MannoFr]

dear renukaji
My point was that those in India do have more opportunity for upgradation than in other part of the country. we neednot divide ourself in chathurvarna in this holy land of bharath. I doagree that the gunas vary individual to individual. but the scope is more here in bharath than in any other part of world.
regarding the question of others please treat me as a lay man

Sri. Kr Subramanian, Greetings.

I went through your messages and the OP in this thread. I am afraid, I disagree with the views expressed. To start with, multiple gods itself is an illusion. There can be just only one personal god. At the time of distress a person possibly would think of just one god which is his/her personal god. Just imagine a person, who had not practised swimming ( everyone knows how to swim, only not everyone practices that) at the verge of drowning... he/she would have just one cry for help; he/she would just pray to one god to help. That is the personal god. (But then, there are persons who don't think of god when drowning).

Your mentioning upgradation and chatur varnyam is quite confusing. Nobody needs upgrading in the varnas. Any god should be decent enough to consider every human being equal irrespective of the varna ( either by birth or by practice). Let us say, I am a thief. Let us say, I lived as a thief all my life, kept my career restricted to only stealing from selected rich persons. Possibly I may not have any conscience pricking. I don't think god would treat me as a bad person when I die.

My personal views are quite different when it comes to karma and all the otther philosophies. Most philosophies are subject to interpretations. So, when you say there are more opportunities in India for upgradation, it doesn't make much sense.

I could be an Inuit ( Eskimo) who eats raw fish meat or I could be orthodox, kind hearted brahmin with organic vegetarian only diet.... it doesn't matter where I live, what I do for living, there is a basic quality for every human being. That is the default quality. Guna of each person depends upon that default quality.

Such default qualities can't be changed that easily. Every person should identify their default quality first. That is the self enquiry. If doesn't change whether that person lives in Thiru Allikkeni Agraharam or amoung cannibal tribes in Papau New Guinea.

Cheers!

[Fegasderty]

dear renukaji
My point was that those in India do have more opportunity for upgradation than in other part of the country.

Shri kr subramanian,

You are right with your above observation..

We do have the concept of up gradation. Not necessarily in our present birth BUT in due course of our birth and rebirth, depending on how possibly we could get relieved from the clutches of our Karma.

We in Bharath with concept of Hinduism- believe, understand and accept that ALL ARE ONE for the Supreme Brahman and each human should be mindful of refining one self and never to resist/hinder others in their refining process, by our words and actions in disguise of advocating practicality, rationality and supremacy, while doing things differently for our self.

We, in Bharath, with multiple spiritual concepts, in identifying and attempting to align with multiple cosmic psychos, are symbolizing and projecting multiple spiritual energies in specific forms and worship them to keep ours self positively energized, to acknowledge and to show our reverence to them.

We as Hindus can believe in and accept the above vivid verities of spirituality, that has its origin in this KarmaBhoomi of Bharath, either dwelling in Bharath or elsewhere.

All that matters is what we can accept, honor, value and follow, irrespective of where we were born (like PIO's) or irrespective of where we dwell (NRI's). As well irrespective of where a person became the son of the soil, other than Bharath.

The KarmaBhoomi of Bharath is a ground-zero of spirituality, taping the spiritual energies of vivid cosmic psychos, that helps humans to work towards self inquiry effectively, with less possible ambiguities (as much one could attain capabilities), considering one self and the whole creation of Brahman, that includes this whole land of survival and the potent cosmic spiritual realities and energies. Considering all that we can consider with this time and space constraints, that we could be familiar with.

For God all are one without any prejudice and preferences. We as righteous Man or a Criminal Man need to refine our self, undergoing the process of birth and rebirth and paying off the Karma. Got to get rid of the clutches of Karma and try to be relieved once for all to get dissolved with cosmos.

God/Spirituality is a undiscriminating guide to every one irrespective of humans actions. The responsibility is on us to bear the fruits of our karma, to nullify our karma, to attain absolute self realization and attain liberation

[tgs]

தலைப்பிற்க்கு நான் தேடிய பொழுது கிடைத்த பதில்கள்....கீழ்கானும் வலைத்தலைப்புகளை காண்க...

தமிழன்: ஆன்மீகம் - கேள்வி பதில்,

http://www.livingextra.com/2011/09/blog-post_02.html

[Lt_Apple]

I am still not convinced that this post was in earnest. I would like Mr. Subramanian to explain his POV. From his post he appears he is not a Hindu or Indian.
There is no hierarchy in caste. There is hierarchy in understanding and achievements. To achieve our ultimate goal is to be one with the supreme Brahman (God). Different names and forms of personal god is a superimposition on Brahman.

[Ifroham4]

Dear sir,
I wish to state that one can question any belief or order, only based on the
knowledge he gained either through books, society or the circumstances under which
he experienced life. So I feel Mr.Krs. is trying to get elaborated based on his own views.
I am unable to understand his claim of 'upgrading' all Indians to 'Brahmins'. Mr. Krs to
please come forward with his detailed reply.
-Srinirajaram.

[LottiFurmann]

Dear sir,
I wish to state that one can question any belief or order, only based on the
knowledge he gained either through books, society or the circumstances under which
he experienced life. So I feel Mr.Krs. is trying to get elaborated based on his own views.
I am unable to understand his claim of 'upgrading' all Indians to 'Brahmins'. Mr. Krs to
please come forward with his detailed reply.
-Srinirajaram.

Mr. Srinirajaram,
I understand your POV, but this is not his first post. He insults the members in this forum, secondly people know that in India there are various religion, and various caste divisions. So his question does not appear to be sincere. You do need to do some research before posting in any forum.

[S.T.D.]

dear renukaji,
since you are a doctor by profession (as I suppose from your example) about 10 years back we were having only MBBS doctors., People used to go to them for medical checkup and they used to diagonise problem and give treatment. But science has grown so much that every part of our body has a specialised doctor who more depends on lab results. In the same way inBharath we have guides specialised in many ways to take us to mukthi marga whereas in other parts of world.they are just as with mbbs doctor. Here unityof humanity is not in question. Scope for upliftment was the point raised by e and I stick to the same.

[Drugmachine]

dear renukaji,
since you are a doctor by profession (as I suppose from your example) about 10 years back we were having only MBBS doctors., People used to go to them for medical checkup and they used to diagonise problem and give treatment. But science has grown so much that every part of our body has a specialised doctor who more depends on lab results. In the same way inBharath we have guides specialised in many ways to take us to mukthi marga whereas in other parts of world.they are just as with mbbs doctor. Here unityof humanity is not in question. Scope for upliftment was the point raised by e and I stick to the same.

Dear sir,

I get what you mean. You want to view India as ONE INDIA where everyone is the same.
In fact I feel may be you are being misunderstood in this thread.
I get what you are trying to say.
You feel there is more scope for a spiritual upliftment for a person born in India cos there are many aspects of the ONE God to cater to the specialized spiritual needs.

Ok lets put it this way..lets take God as the Divine Physician. For example take Lord Shiva, He is often described as Bheshajam Bhava Roginam ..the Divine Physician for the Diseases of Existence.
So lets make Him the Health Minister..working under Him there are many directors,officers,medical personnel for the well being of the patient.

The aim of the whole Divine Ministry of Health is to make us Mrityunjaya(to conquer death) and to guide us right from our existence so that we are never born again and no need to die again and again.

So sir..this is in a nutshell what you were trying to say.
But tell me the truth sir..how many people in this world or even in India actually think on these lines when the common man is more worried when his next meal is coming.

We really cant think of God and spiritual upliftment on an empty stomach.

Thats why I feel Caturvarna is actually describing the spiritual stages of our lives.

Working hard and dependent on others for sustenance (Shudra)
Able to provide for oneself(Vaisya)
Starting to fight the battle of one's own senses(Kshatriya)
Contemplating on God and realizing Brahman(Brahmana)

This is how I would like to view the Caturvarna system

Just to add..no one can uplift anyone else except himself..after all didnt Lord Krishna say:


Uddharet Atmana Atmanam Natmanam Avasadayet
Atmaiva Hyatmano Bandhuratmaiva Ripuratmanah.

"Let a man raise himself by himself, let him not lower himself; for he alone is the friend of himself, he alone is the enemy of himself."

[TorryJens]

Am i missing something? That web link works well for me. Where does it say 'unauthorized'? I am sure, I am missing something.
Cheers!

Here is a screen shot:

BG_9-23.gif

[radikal]

No many god. Each person have some thought in their mind so they can sketch the picture as per their mind. Whatever picture but one follow one god, so that they can easily do meditate. If so many god mind is not in one stand.

[9mm_fan]

I don't understand what and why some members are talking about only one God? Why are they saying that Hindus are basically worshiping one God and there is nothing but a mere sketch of different images/forms of God as per some one's mind storm imaginations? I fail to understand why some members say that we can worship and meditate on one God only? Why they say there exists only one God for your day to day spirituality?

I do understand and accept that there is only one Supreme Brahman - Nirguna Brahman - The absolute purest conscious.

But we do believe in Saguna Brahman, representing multiple spiritual energies that helps in strengthening our sense and shaping our individuality.

When I was in Chennai, I used to visit temples at least 3 days a week before leaving for office. On every Sankatahara Chaturthi I participate in homam and abhishekam and meditate on Lord Ganesha without any distraction. On Kirthikai and Shashti I offer my prayers to Lord Murugan and meditate on him to my heart content. I visit Shiva temple, Durga temple, Kali temple, Pratiyangara Devi, I worship Dhakshinamoorthy, Lord Hanuman, Kala Bhairavar, Sarpeswarar, Shiridi Saibaba, Lord Rama, Krishna, Navagrahas and so many.

Each of my worship gives different stimulation to my senses and I feel strengthened and satisfied. Each deity and his/her worship provides me with strengthening my respective senses that all are needed for better thoughts, knowledge, skills, determinations and actions.

On every Friday, in the morning, I used to lit a ghee lamp in our pooja room, sit before the lamp and meditate Devi Durga for half an hour.

I meditate on multiple Gods and I derive immense pleasure. My spirituality towards multiple Gods strengthens my inner self, intuition and the drive to perform my multiple duties as a human, with my sense of morality, discipline and humanity.

We have multiple Saguna Brahman, symbolized in particular forms, representing multiple cosmic/spiritual energies. We worship them and attempt to keep our self in tact as humans, fulfilling our spiritual needs and living a life of descent accomplishments.

With all our spirituality in dedication to multiple cosmic / spiritual energies, we Hindus attempt to live an ideal life, shaping our personality for better and striving to achieve "UPLIFTMENT" of our self to the level of Brahman in our desire to be relieved from the cycle of birth-death-rebirth and get dissolved with the supreme being.

This philosophy and spiritual system of Hinduism has its origin from Bhaarath, that helps each Hindu to strive towards self upliftment and get liberated.


MERA BHAARATH MAHAAN.

[LottiFurmann]

dear renukaji,
first of all thank you for understanding my point of view to a certain extent.
madam, from your explanation of chathurvarna do you mean that only person well off (monetarily/physically) can only be treated as brahmana and he onlyhave time/ability to devote for salvation. I am intererested in your views. can you explainmore.

[Lt_Apple]

oru naamam oruruvam onrum illarkku oiram thirunaamam padi naam thellenam kottome.

[LottiFurmann]

dear renukaji,
first of all thank you for understanding my point of view to a certain extent.
madam, from your explanation of chathurvarna do you mean that only person well off (monetarily/physically) can only be treated as brahmana and he onlyhave time/ability to devote for salvation. I am intererested in your views. can you explainmore.

Dear sir,

I never mentioned richness anywhere in my description of the spiritual aspect of the Caturvarna.
I used the word sustenance.
Man needs some basic amount of Roti,Kapda Aur Makaan for a decent life.

Ok lets take Kuchela episode..he was facing financial insecurity and even his wife and kids had hardly food and he was too worried about sustenance of life.
Thats why he sought to see Lord Krishna hoping He would solve his problems.
Kuchela had faith in God but in time of adversity he wanted some material to feed his wife and children.
Thats the normal reaction of any human being...anyone of us will be agitated if we have to worry if our spouse and kids might get their next meal or not.

Only when all basic needs in life are met the mind can focus on the final aspect of religion.

For that matter even if you notice the evolution of the Vedas you will realize that man is expected to meet all his basic needs before he can even have an idea of any Mahavakya of the Vedas.

At the beginning man worshiped nature..hence we see praises to the Devas which govern nature like the Sun,Wind,Rain/Water,Fire etc.

Then when man learnt to harness the power of nature..agriculture came into the picture and we see more rituals on increasing grain and rain for a better harvest.

Then when men became a bit more financially stable there are rituals on acquiring cattle,wealth.

Next stage is when men desire heavenly status and yagnas for enjoying higher heavenly status which are usually carried out by Kings.

In the above stages the idea of a personal god(Saguna Brahman) has a firm footing cos man needs a focus for his mind.
And the various aspects of Saguna Brahman helps shape a mans intellect too.

Final stage is when men realizes the impermanence of family, wealth and even heaven, he desires liberation and the idea of a personal god ceases to be and finally realizes Brahman hence a Brahmana.

[MannoFr]

@CRAVI

I like your pov.

Philosophy cannot bake bread. But to bake bread, one needs a philosophy. Why do I want to bake bread? Why should I eat? Why should I live?

Or, at a different level, how did I come into this world? Why was I not consulted? And if I have to partake of this world, who is directing this world? Can I get to meet the director and talk to him? Some of these questions were posed by Soren Kierkegaard, a Danish philosopher.

Does it all look like some kind of a game? Mythologies and scriptures serve the role of inspiring, involving and initiating laymen to play this game. Getting worked up about the multitude of gods - as if that is a bad thing - resembles the mental perspective of a four-year old.

The Hindu belief-system ( philosophy? faith ? religion? or sanatana dharma ?) employs symbolisms, metaphors and other ( literary? ) devices to express the "reality" of the observable world. It works at several levels of human consciousness/awareness - and, depending on one's psychological make-up, these symbolisms can mean one thing to one person and a different thing to another person. The "reality" can therefore appear to be subtle, too simple or too complex.

Often, more than one meaning can be implied by any single statement or imagery. If one is looking for a hidden meaning, the interpretation is dependent on one's own psycho-socio-cultural disposition.

Anyway, what or who are these gods?

Modern science reveals that, in the ultimate analysis, the 'reality' of this ‘observable’ universe, originates from one thing (one reality?) which can be comprehended through its dual manifestation: energy/matter. This contemporary perspective in science is not unlike the Hindu perspective that there is only one reality called Brahman with a dual manifestation – purusha and prakriti, or nirguna brahman and sagunabrahman. Just as Energy/matter can take various forms, similarly, brahman can manifest in various forms - including the multitude of gods that have different qualities, characters and attributes.

Carl Jung was a Swiss psychiatrist, the founder of analytical psychology. Jung is considered the first modern psychiatrist to view the human psyche as "by nature religious" and make it the focus of exploration. According to Jung, all these gods correspond to "universal archetypes", deep psychological realities. Archetypes? They are components of the sub-conscious, which are expressed through the characters and themes upon which the puranas are based. In this view, the gods mirror our conscious and unconscious drives, fears, ambitions, and so on. If a student worships Ganesha, he is expressing his psychological desire to be successful in his examinations. The bania worshipping Lakshmi is expressing his desire for wealth. The images of gods are symbolic.

A devotee chooses to worship one god or another ( ishta devata), or many gods depending on which attributes resonate with his own psychological makeup. Just because an ishta devata is worshipped, the concept of brahman is not compromised. Does a teenager idolising a sports person and/or a movie actor compromise his relationship with his parents?

Say you are using the IE browser on your PC or laptop. For printing a file, you have several options:

1) you can click on the printer icon, or
2) the text labeled 'PRINT' or
3) hit the 'ctrl' plus letter 'P' on the keyboard.

These three options are in a virtual sense three icons or images so-to-speak; are there three real printers or which one of these represents the real printer? Similarly, there is a different set of symbols/labels/icons for saving a file. And so on and so forth.