[Lt_Apple]

Exactly, that's why I've chosen to be an agnostic theist #circularreasoning

[S.T.D.]

Forgot to ask, what's the reasoning behind certain people getting possessed by God during religions ceremonies and functions. I've witnessed this during Gujarati Garba outings during Navratri. My granddad, who was a monothiest Hindu before only worshiping shiv ji (yet he had his friend read him the bhagvad gita before passing away), used to shun these people as being pakhandis (attention seekers)

[HedgeYourBets]

@Nov, the name Siva is taken from the thamizh word "red" (I don't know if this is an act of thamizh extremists as in sanskrit it mean the auspicious one ) Has siva always been what he has today or transformed from Rudra and is there such a thing as a rudra lingam or is it the same as siva lingam? Pardon my ignorance.

@Paramashivan and others.

I came across something which may interest you, if you haven't already please watch Vedic Scholar Nicholas Kazanas videos on Youtube.

This is my favourite video, interview by S. Kalyanaraman



@ 5.38 (Bearing in mind Buddhism is off-shoot of Hinduism, This is also the principle that Buddha spread i.e. Godhead inside one or enlightenment)

My take

G = great
O = omnipresent
D = divine

[brraverishhh]

Hello

The concept of Guru Brahma, Guru Vishnu, and Guru Devo Maheshawaraga is simply introduced to explain the manifestation of the cosmos. Creation, Preservation and destruction, these are the fundamental functionality of the cosmos.

You are right about Shiva worship, prior to the various other gods of today, infact Shiva worship started off as a "stone worship" hence Lingam worship, later scholars reconstructed the Lingam to significantly explain the idea of creation. Do you know what Shivalinga symbolizes??

[Peptobismol]

Friends,

I was going through an Article about Lord Shiva in "Week magazine" this week. it talks about who was Shiva, his characteristics etc and then ends up how we started worshiping Shiva Lingam - what exactly it is etc, it would be a surprise for many of us here, even though we frequent Shiva temples.

Some questions crepped up in my mind when I was reading this article and digesting the facts(so called). Initially in the subcontinent there was mainly Shiva worshiping including the Harappa and Mohenjudharo civilizations(if you see aged old temples of India from Kashmir to Kanyakumari there are all Shiva temples - Vishnu temples are relatively new). Shiva should have been the god for Creation and Protection - typical duties of a God as per a human mind.

When exactly did the new gods Brahma and Vishnu get in to our society? the concept of Trinity come in and each got specific departments assigned - Brahma for Creation, Vishnu for Protection and Shiva for Destruction (Do we need a God for destruction??? is destruction a portfolio held by a God)??? Why can't one God fulfill all these demands, why did we think that god cannot multitask and do all these tasks parallely?? Also not very sure where is the Demarcation between Creation and Protection?? Creation also involves protection right?? starting from Conception till delivery I thought creation and protection go hand in hand - Only if the Sperm and Egg is protected can the Conception happen, only if the Fetus is protected the Baby can be delivered????

I was reading a book on similarities between Hindu god Brahma and Semitic Prophet Abraham (Christianity/ Jewish - Abraham and Islamic - Ibrahim). He is a old, bearded man said to have born in a place called "OOR" (Tamil word oor for a place) and then wandered west propagating against Idol worshiping - Is this the reason why we don't have Idols of him? as per Hindu traditions his wife Name is Sara-Swathi (Swathi is white in Sanskrit, lady with white dress and her name should be something like Sara) a very intelligent and good looking lady - as per Semitic religions Abraham/ Ibrahim's wife is Sarah (look at the close similarities in names!!!!) who was also very intelligent, learned and good looking.
Also one more commonalty between the two Sarah and Sarah-Swathi is that both are supposed to be daughter's of Abraham/ Brahma - whom the father married - its incest in both the religions (some say as Brahma is the creator, so he had to marry someone he created as there was no one else to offer him his daughter - this is debatable topic).

My question is: Looks like one group of people who were part/ influenced by the Semetic religion moved into India in some historic timeline, who considered Brahma as their roots, worshiped him and then looking into the local trend of religion which was Shiva worshiping, brought in the concept of Trinity as part of unification??? When they brought in the concept of Trinity to maintain their strong hold they added Brahma in the first and then moved the local god to the last???

Please flood in your thoughts on what you think about this.....

[Fegasderty]

My question is: Looks like one group of people who were part/ influenced by the Semetic religion migrated to India in some historic timeline, who considered Brahma as their roots, worshiped him and then looking into the local trend of religion which was Shiva worshiping, brought in the concept of Trinity as part of unification??? When they brought in the concept of Trinity to maintain their strong hold they added Brahma in the first and then moved the local god to the lost???

As you know India had been under many invasion, sanskrit was introduced by various invasion from persia, babylonia and as far as Turkey. It is all part of evolution.

Besides, the Creator of the cosmos alias GOD is not an external entity , it is within you. All religious sects preach the Lord is an external entity, but only in what is called hinduism (name given by Persian invaders) it is taught to realise that the Creator is within you by various forms of Meditation/Yoga and self realisation.

BTW Shiva is considred to be the Adhi Yogi (The Enlightent one)

[Beerinkol]

the abraham-brahma connection is interesting...

[S.T.D.]

Friends,

Initially in the subcontinent there was mainly Shiva worshiping including the Harappa and Mohenjudharo civilizations

Not just in the Indian Subcontinent, in places like Brazil, Peru (The Mayans) there was Shivalinga worship. In the Kabba in Mecca, there is set to be a Shiva lingam.

This Ling worship was evident in what are now Cambodia, Vietnam, Myanmar as well as Java and Sumatra!

[Slonopotam845]

another school of thought believes that originally the gods worshipped by tamils were thirumal and amman, other than the different village gods.
all other present day gods were "imported."
both these gods were dark-skinned, as opposed to all others.
later the thirumaal worshipped by tamils was absorbed to the "imported" vishnu.
it also explains why siva has no generic tamil name.

on brahma-vishnu-siva trilogy, brahma is not permanent and is created every yuga. you would have seen brahma coming out of the navel of vishnu.
on why must there be a god of destruction, everything created will eventually be destroyed and birth-life-death is a cycle.
destroying is not bad - destroyer of ego, ill-thoughts, anger, greed, etc
brahma - Generator
vishnu - Operator
siva - Destroyer
=
God

many of us know the link between sivalingam and the phallic symbol - there is nothing to be ashamed of, as fertility is the root of existence.

as I said, all these are schools of thought and there is no way anyone can prove which one is right or wrong.

[Lillie_Steins]

Thanks Nov and others for your response.

I understand the agreed upon purpose of each among the trinity, my question is - Is this is a fabricated story that came into existence sometime later just for one group to get supremacy????

[Beerinkol]

I understand the agreed upon purpose of each among the trinity, my question is - Is this is a fabricated story that came into existence sometime later just for one group to get supremacy????

We all came from Africa is the claim made by today's scientists. Perhaps it is a fabricated story by Westerners to grant supremacy to Africans.

Have you read the original Shaashtra under a teacher? Please do that and then form your opinions. The article that you claimed to have read is from a "magazine" written by an author who has projected his own ideas to the Hindu scriptures. He does not say whether those ideas are correct or intended by tradition. Who is his teacher, on what basis or grounds does he form his opinions?

When we visit a doctor, we try to ensure by direct verification or by implication (from other sources) that he has got a degree from an accredited institution and has been practising medicine for some time. When parents join their kids to a school, they ensure that the school is accredited by a higher authority and has been giving consistent results for several years.

In the same way, no person, who is for or against religious ideas, has any authority by his own accord. First proceed to verify the authority from which he/she speaks. If you have verified his/her authority and are convinced of it, please carry on your study of his/her ideas for an extended period of time. Then reflect on the ideas using your own developed intellect. Then ultimately give "your" opinion on it, based on all these.

A 3000+ year old tradition cannot be ascertained to one way or another without careful, consistent and systematic study from the appropriate sources.

Just my two cents.

Love and Light.

[Paul Bunyan]

We all came from Africa is the claim made by today's scientists. .

Yes, according to scientists the Indian sub continent plate was joined with Africa millions year ago, and the ocean separated the plates by various natural calamities like Tsunami’s, Earth quakes etc.

[Beerinkol]

Yes, according to scientists the Indian sub continent plate was joined with Africa millions year ago, and the ocean separated the plates by various natural calamities like Tsunami’s, Earth quakes etc.

My statement was supposed to be a joke . Of course we came from Africa. Infact we did not get separated because of natural calamities. The earliest humans walked all the way along the coast from Africa through Middle East to India till Asia's south east. That is how we spread originally. I think this is our (humanity's) current understanding of the earliest human beings.

Anyway, all this is away from the topic.

Love and Light.

[Paul Bunyan]

My statement was supposed to be a joke .

But there is as high possibilty that the Earth's Continental plates were all joined together over millions of year ago, and got seperated by Tsunamis alike, Look at lanka for example, wasn't seperated by Tidal waves or what is known as Tsunami (now) thousands of year ago ?

[Beerinkol]

Sunil

Pls give me a moment, I will explain , but busy at work

[tgs]

But there is as high possibilty that the Earth's Continental plates were all joined together over millions of year ago, and got seperated by Tsunamis alike, Look at lanka for example, wasn't seperated by Tidal waves or what is known as Tsunami (now) thousands of year ago ?

There was/is continental drift of course, but this was not a factor in the spread of human beings, simply because we are too "new", evolutionally speaking, for that extremely slow drift to matter in our spread.

See - http://science.howstuffworks.com/env...-migration.htm

Love and Light.

[Peptobismol]

the name Siva is taken from the thamizh word "red"

Sivapoo/ Sigapoo is the word meaning red, so I don't see the connection.

Has siva always been what he has today or transformed from Rudra and is there such a thing as a rudra lingam or is it the same as siva lingam?

No, Linga worship was first form of worship, but earlier Shiva has been refered as Rudra !

[NeroASERCH]

There was/is continental drift of course, but this was not a factor in the spread of human beings, simply because we are too "new", evolutionally speaking, for that extremely slow drift to matter in our spread.

See - http://science.howstuffworks.com/env...-migration.htm

Thanks Kathir ! find it quite hard to believe that 400,000 year ago the continental structures were the same

[TorryJens]

I was born into a Hindu family but recently after diving deep through intricacies, I find there are many contradictions in this religion as well as conflicting beliefs. God is far too great to be placed in any religion. Religion is only a focal point and if anyone asks me, I'd say that I'm an agnostic thiest who doesn't deny the supernatural.

Over the weekend, I went to celebrate Shri Krishna Janamashtmi Maha Mahotsav and visited a stall "Back to godhead", which just like any other Isckon subsidiary, primarily aims to get people chanting their transcendental Maha Mantra. Anyway I saw a family tree of Lord Krishna (Trying to find this picture online and no luck so far!) starting with Lord Vishnu, second to come was Lord Brahma in brackets reading from the Lord Vishnu’s naval and then in the third generation amongst others like Agni, Vayu etc. was Lord Shiva.

I was totally baffled... I came home and done my research and found out the Lord Shiva himself is the Trimurti, i.e. Sadyajota (Brahma), Vamadeva (Vishnu) and Aghora (Shiva).

The former belief is obviously a Vaishnav one and the later being a Saivite one. But seriously, despite being considered the oldest religion, Hinduism is no way a religion and is rather a set of collected beliefs that is still evolving even today. So many branches and then you have taboo matters as caste which divides this religion further. At best it should be considered a way of life, not a religion. As a Hindu I used to question myself and say if I believe in Hanuman, then I'm not doing justice to Shiva. If I believe in Mata then I'm not doing justice to Krishna, etc. I used to feel guilty in praying to individual gods though I knew God wouldn't mind as long as I worship him/her in any form. So over the years I've become a monotheist, who doesn't comprehend the idea of worshiping different gods even if they are focal points. I’m not against Polytheism; I just don’t seem to understand it. When I feel that I've received a blessing I just thank god and don't feel the need in chanting a prayer devoted to a specific god. Occasionally I end up chanting, Om Namah Shivay, Namoh Narayan, Jai Mata di, Hare Krishna etc. without any reasoning. I feel that it’s the soul that makes this accidental decision and not the mind.

I also chant Jai Ho! for Rahman Ji lol Jokes apart, as a conclusion, one needs not to be religious or pious! You can still feel a personal connection with the supreme without having a religion. This is just how I feel and spirituality has overtaken my religion for me.
I just wanted to question the Trimurti but ended up getting carried away lol

One World. One Family.

[Drugmachine]

I was born into a Hindu family but recently after diving deep through intricacies, I find there are many contradictions in this religion as well as conflicting beliefs. God is far too great to be placed in any religion. Religion is only a focal point and if anyone asks me, I'd say that I'm an agnostic thiest who doesn't deny the supernatural.

Over the weekend, I went to celebrate Shri Krishna Janamashtmi Maha Mahotsav and visited a stall "Back to godhead", which just like any other Isckon subsidiary, primarily aims to get people chanting their transcendental Maha Mantra. Anyway I saw a family tree of Lord Krishna (Trying to find this picture online and no luck so far!) starting with Lord Vishnu, second to come was Lord Brahma in brackets reading from the Lord Vishnu’s naval and then in the third generation amongst others like Agni, Vayu etc. was Lord Shiva.

I was totally baffled... I came home and done my research and found out the Lord Shiva himself is the Trimurti, i.e. Sadyajota (Brahma), Vamadeva (Vishnu) and Aghora (Shiva).

The former belief is obviously a Vaishnav one and the later being a Saivite one. But seriously, despite being considered the oldest religion, Hinduism is no way a religion and is rather a set of collected beliefs that is still evolving even today. So many branches and then you have taboo matters as caste which divides this religion further. At best it should be considered a way of life, not a religion. As a Hindu I used to question myself and say if I believe in Hanuman, then I'm not doing justice to Shiva. If I believe in Mata then I'm not doing justice to Krishna, etc. I used to feel guilty in praying to individual gods though I knew God wouldn't mind as long as I worship him/her in any form. So over the years I've become a monotheist, who doesn't comprehend the idea of worshiping different gods even if they are focal points. I’m not against Polytheism; I just don’t seem to understand it. When I feel that I've received a blessing I just thank god and don't feel the need in chanting a prayer devoted to a specific god. Occasionally I end up chanting, Om Namah Shivay, Namoh Narayan, Jai Mata di, Hare Krishna etc. without any reasoning. I feel that it’s the soul that makes this accidental decision and not the mind.

I also chant Jai Ho! for Rahman Ji lol Jokes apart, as a conclusion, one needs not to be religious or pious! You can still feel a personal connection with the supreme without having a religion. This is just how I feel and spirituality has overtaken my religion for me.
I just wanted to question the Trimurti but ended up getting carried away lol

One World. One Family.

Sunilji

Excuse me if I ask you a personal question, did you live the majority of your personality-forming years in a country other than India?

"Hinduism" is not a religion, indeed, in the notion of Abrahamic religions. But it is a religion in the sense that its fundamental principles are founded on the Veda, which is its holy text.

It is natural to be bewildered by such a "religion" where the people who call themselves as "hindus" subscribe to a whole lot of different and conflicting ideas. Although you do indeed see a similar diversity with other religions (the flavours of Islam, Christianity is a testimony to the fact that they are too not without diversity), in no other do you find it to the extent you find it in Hinduism. The reason for these conflicting ideas is simply that Hinduism allows for different interpretations of the Vedic words according to the nature and mindset of its followers. It allows the diversity, as long as the general guidelines given by the Veda are not contradicted.

As to the issue of polytheism in Hinduism, you yourself have provided the answer.

I knew God wouldn't mind as long as I worship him/her in any form. You do realise that God is one indeed (in Hinduism), only the forms and names are different. Even when a devout Vaishnavite worships Lord Vishnu, he doesn't simply worship one name or one form. There is the Vishnu Sahasranama which speaks of Vishnu with a thousand names and in a thousand forms (well, nearly.. there are a few repetitions :P) and this devotee is perfectly OK with worshipping Vishnu with all these names and in all these forms. So there is no such thing in Hinduism where God exists only in a particular form alone. So there is no need to feel "guilty" wrt other forms, when you are worshiping one form. Just as you may be playing different roles in your life, like being a son, father, brother, employee, employer, student etc., in the same way, the one and only Lord takes up these names and forms according to the roles that needed to be taken up at those particular occasions. So there is no contradiction at all.

In fact, Hinduism is one of the few religions in this world which is perfectly fine with embracing and encouraging the thinking faculty among the people. As the thirst for knowing the Lord is shown, so too the Lord opens ways for knowing and understanding Her in Her truer and truer forms, which are rewards not just for faith but also for the growing intellect.

Love and Light.