[MannoFr]

Dear Idiappam Sir
You are mistaking the intention of my post.What I meant to say was that "kama" is an essential part of our literature.Even Thirukural has kamathaupal in it.I have read Abirami bhattar's "Abirami Andhadhi",Andal's "Nachiyar thirumozhi" etc.These works have "kama" in them but they are holy to me and they are sung in temples.I'm not ashamed of the "kama" content in them.

Kalidasar "Kumara Sambhava",valmiki's ramayana have lot of "kama" content in them.but,i'll not reject those books and will not reject my heritage.Lot of houses in N.india read "ramayana" daily.I have read adi sankara's soundarya lahari and other sanskrit slokas of his.they do describe various organs of Godesses but still they are considered as slokas.
what you consider as "sankritic filth/Tamil filth" is not considered as "filth" by me at all!!!

Those are the works written by our ancestor and nothing there to be ashamed of them.

[Lt_Apple]

Just reading the first para of SUDHAMA's post is enough for me to understand what is the agenda.
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According to me, Hinduism or Indian Civilization is not equal to Vedic Faith. Vedic Faith is a comparitively new, laterally injected, though significant, but the not the dominant, component of the great edifice called Indian religious experience. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism.. even Atheism are other components.
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Please don't carp on Vedic Faith being equal to Indian heritage. This is a vast country and people. Keep your narrow seactarian views to yourself.
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Incidentally, the idea of pithrubhumi/punyabhoomi debate is betraying itself in your long-winded obfuscations. Makes it clear what you are trying to say, even if you do not say it.. The pernicious idea makes it impossible for Japenese Buddhists to be Japenese, American Hindus to be Americans, European Christians to be Europeans etc.. think about it.
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Why don't you clearly state your narrow views instead of couching it in fake moderation, unconvincing lip-service to 'Harmony", 'Broad-minded spririt' etc.

[softy54534]

Is preaching allowed in the HIstory Section?

[Beerinkol]

Dear Mr. / Ms. "EdenWoods"

// I clearly see that the author of this thread has excluded Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Christianity (here for 2000 years) and islam (which has been in India right from the time of the Prophet), host of tribal religions etc from his notion of INDIAN HERITAGE.//

I am unable to understand, how you say that Jainism, Budhism and Sikhism which faiths too originated from this Great Indian-soil, are excluded from the Scope of this thread.

... Have I mentioned so... even indrectly in my INTRODUCTORY-NOTE?...

Equally other Great Faiths of Christianity, Islam and the like too ... well deserve to be highly revered...

... and their Divine- Morals to be taken up, for the benefit of Mankind...

.. even though... Islam forms part of Arabian-Heritage ...

... and Christianity forms part of Israel-Heritage....

.. since originated from those Holy-Soils.

In brief..the intention and scope of this Thread is not to denigrate other Faiths. .

. but to only bring out the Hidden greatness of Indian-Heritage... as RECOGNISED BY INDIAN CONSTITUITION as Secular- Spirit.

So I will be the FIRST MAN to raise my Vociferous -objection on any sickly trend ...

.. if it so emanates... against any Global-Faiths nor against any section of Mankind, past or the present. ...

being not only far from the True Spirit of SECULARISM....

... but also a violation on the Scope of this Healthy-Outlook Thread.

Fearing of such a Misconception...

...I have cautiously and repeatedly insisted on the Secularism of Indian Culture...

.. which implies the Large-Hearted Spirit of UNIVERSAL-LOVE of Humane-Outlook on Life... coupled with viewing the

... Greatness of all the Global-Faiths or Religions and Philosophy, as well as the International Multiple-Cultures....

... which is the INDIAN- OULOOK and HERITAGE .. as per our Consitituition...

Hence such a healthy BROAD-MINDED SPIRIT has been firmly asserted...

... through the Title of the Thread... "LARGE-HEARTED INDIAN-HERITAGE Common for Mankind"

... as also in the Introduction more elaborately to CLARIFY.

I am really SURPRISED TO NOTE Your Dubious Surprise on this HEALTHY- OUTLOOK.... of Human-Spirit !!! ???

// The contrived nod to 'concern for common-man of Humanity' etc..is artificial and only a fig leaf to hide a narrow vision. One can sense pent up abuse just behind the facade.//

Why I started talking about the Broad-Vedic-sense... initially?

(1) Because it is the so called Hinduisim, the Vedic-faith... which is facing the MAXIMUM POSSIBLE MISCONCEPTIONS ..

.. mutual .CONTRADICTIONS and DISPUTES, even amongst its followers .

... not only within India... but also out of India too... rather Internationally, when compared to any other Faiths.

(2) Vedic-Faith was the Prime-faith... which originated First of all prior to Budhism, Jainism and the like.

(3) Vedic-Faith is not One Religion... as many are looking at... but a Complex-form of almost all the popular Word-Religions...

.. conveying the same High Spirit and Great Senses ... towards EMANICIPATION OF MANKIND... through one of the Multiple- choices

... spreading ILL-WILL AGAINST NONE.... nor antagonising any other Religion or Faith.

With a Really LARGE- HEART ... as invited through the Thread-Title.. if anybody views this Topic... he will be happy to find the deep meanings and High- sense conveyed by the Great Indian- Heritage

// It is clear that some individuals frustrated with the anti-abuse policy of the Hub now are trying to inject their poisonous views surreptiously, when no one is looking, with lot of fake sanctimoniuosness //.

If the gesture of clarifying the True-sense of Indian Hereitage is WRONG... then I am the Culprit.

If bringing out the Hidden-truth of Great Human-Morals ...behind the
Indian-Culture... is an ABUSE ... then I am the Culprit.

If spreading the spirit of United Global- Human-Love ... is a POISON .. then I am the Culprit.

// I think the admins need to be more alert //

Yes... Yes.. . Yes... I join with you in RAISING MY CONGRUENT VOICE TOO ...

... against any such Mischief by anybody.. if surreptitiously pokes in....

... ANTAGONISING the Healthy Scope of this Rare and HIGHLY MEANINGFUL Topic ...

... intended for the benefit of United Human-Life... IRRESPECTIVE OF RELIGIOUS ASPECT.

[NeroASERCH]

Please continue your discussions in HnC Section.

[radikal]

Pradheep
I have seen this same style of writing in saint Arunagirinathar's works.it'll look as if the saint always talks of sex etc but they have deep philosophical meanings too.In those literature was supposed to be made up of different emotions and kama was also one among them. Hence you can see any ancient Hindu devotional works(Sanskrit/Tamil) having these things in it.
There is nothing to be ashamed of this literature.

[9mm_fan]

Since Sir Pradheep also told me a 'house from a cliff' story, I will tell a 'ore oru oorula, ore oru ...' story.

Sometime ago, in Singapore, one worker was injured - paralysed waste down. He came from a poor village in Bangladesh. Married with kids, and had borrowed an hefty some of money to come here. Many locals, poor and rich, felt sorry and contributed money.

There was an elderly Chinese woman who went to visit him at the hospital, with all the money she had, about fifty dollars. Then on she was there everyday, fed hid, wiped him etc etc for weeks till he was discharged. The story was reported in the local papers.

That is what I call 'highest level of spirituallity' - the woman's. God wasn't there! Thirumoolar called that 'Anbe Sivam'.
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«ý§À º¢ÅÁ¡ÅÐ ¬Õõ «È¢ó¾À¢ý
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[Ifroham4]

Fantastic Sir Pradheep,

A simple 'anbE Sivam' sprituallity shown by that Chinese woman can beget more than 190 lines from you, just to show that such things 'transcends' to some Vedic things. How much more confusion are the Vedic going to cause??

[Drugmachine]

I take the chinese lady helping the bangaladeshi as a form of Godliness.

Probably, that's what Tirumoolar meant!

[LottiFurmann]

she was there everyday, fed hid, wiped him etc etc for weeks till he was discharged. That is what I call 'highest level of spirituallity' - the woman's. God wasn't there! Thirumoolar called that 'Anbe Sivam'. Dear idiappam

Very good. This selfless service is a means of transcendence from the individual self (Jiva) to the higher "Self" (Brahman). Because when you transcend you lose the thought of my body, my money, my time, my personal hygiene. All that is lost there. There is then no difference between the chinese lady and the bangladesh. She bascially became him and she did as she would do to herJiva self to the higher self (Brahman). I dont know wht you mean by God, was not there. Anbe Shivam means that compassion transcends jiva to non-individual self is Shivam (god).

Since you think God as a person sitting in heaven you say god was not there. that is your problem of understanding (sorry to be rude...only to get you to the point).


There are different levels to transcend. As I discussed earlier, act of sex , singing bhajans, meditation, yoga, contemplation, selfless service, etc. Even in peak of happiness we transcend....but that lasts only for moments. For some one to be all the time in that transcended state makes a saint or gnani.

Transcendence is only the means........as i point you the crow to show the house. remember crow is not the house...I am just using to help you to get the house...brahman. This type of analogy in sanskrit is called sakha chandra nyaya.

This is the message of all siddhars, yogi's whether born in India or else where in the world. All give the same message ....to transcend from the individual jiva to the wholistic Brahman....only the names change.

Any objection to the above, my dear idiappam sir?

[TorryJens]

.
.. Large-Hearted INDIAN-HERITAGE Exemplary for MANKIND

Even the Non-Indian Foreigners like Dr. Anne-Besant, Dr. Max-muller, Dr. Percival and such others have praised highly of Indian-Heritage...

.. especially the Vedas, Upanishads Geetha and the like... alongside the Vedic- Culture of India

... being inherent and implied with Great Sense of High Moral-Values as the Exemplary Scriptures of Universal- spirit.. irrespective of Religious aspect...

.. rather as Commonly applicable to any Human... all over the World.. irrespective of the Social Vivi-sectional... or Sectarian.. or National boundaries..

No doubt the parallel Holy-Scriptures such as the Bible, Koran, Dhammapada and the like too...

... convey to Mankind several Gospels of Human- values .

But what is the Rudimentary Vedic-Sense and Heritage-content as worthy for a Common-Man...

.. the Unique-Message of Moral-Values... worthy towards MEANINGFUL LIFE.??

Let us discuss here in a Healthy, SECULAR and NON-RELIGIOUS Simple approach of Concern to any Individual member of Global- Humanity.

Hari-Ohm !!! Lokaah-Samasthaah Sukhino bhavanthu !!!

(Oh! God our Protector and the Conservator of PROSPERITY... Let all the People in the ENTIRE UNIVERSE... be Happy)

Ohm Santhi ! Santhi !! Santhi !!!

( Oh! God ... Let PEACE prevail within Me.. as well as in the places around me...

... Peace... in others and those places away from me... and...

... Peace for those elsewhere unknown to me being Strangers along with their places too)

[NeroASERCH]

Uncle Sudhamaa said:
(1) Because it is the so called Hinduisim, the Vedic-faith... A fatal assumption! Kavadi bearing is not a Vedic-faith! Then which place has it in your 'so called Hinduism'.

(2) Vedic-Faith was the Prime-faith... which originated First of all prior to Budhism, Jainism and the like. Because it was there before Jainism/Buddhism it become the 'PRIME' faith???

(3) Vedic-Faith is not One Religion... as many are looking at... but a Complex-form of almost all the Word-Religions... That is just preaching . Uncle why don't you give us some quotes from the Vedas - and tell how 'the Vedic Faith is Complex-form of almost all the Word-Religions..."

I don't like blank bullets. They just make noise!

[TorryJens]

Yes that's right! Let's discuss about vast RICH culture of the WAR MORONS American Revolution and Vi-Kings of England and their Rich POTATO Culture, of course That is Far MORE INTERESTING wouldn't you say SAY??

That will would broaden the Topic.

[doctorzlo]

Arunagirinathar's works are philosophical.I have read his life story and then he changed for better.But,the "kama" contect he wrote do have philosophical meaning.Or they can also be interpreted in philosophical way.I do remember reading this in Murugadas "Skanda Sashti kavacam" thread.

Also, jayadeva's ashtapathi is very very erotic,i think.But carnatic singers do sing it with full devotion.Bagavatham is full of Krishna "leelas".they might look erotic at the outset.but there are philosophical meanings to them.atleast,some scholars /religious people have given philosophical meanings.for e.g.
Krishna and gopis are explained with jivatma is yearning for paramamtma.

[9mm_fan]

There was an elderly Chinese woman who went to visit him at the hospital, with all the money she had, about fifty dollars. Then on she was there everyday, fed hid, wiped him etc etc for weeks till he was discharged. The story was reported in the local papers.

That is what I call 'highest level of spirituallity' - the woman's. God wasn't there! Thirumoolar called that 'Anbe Sivam'.
[/tscii]

Awesome explanation, Idiappam Sir. This is exactly what I think too.

[softy54534]

The intended purpose of the introducer of this thread is now being served.
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The kindred Vedic souls with their narrow views have jumped into the fray...Why are they not like us normal people?
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War Morons/Nazis? .
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eh? Ha.. that seems to be an appropriate discription for those who peddle the narrow vision themselves, but slap the terms on others..
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I would rather prefer Idiappam (why the nick?) because what he says is at least not hate-filled.

[Lt_Apple]

Dear Viggop
You are right whether it is sanskrit or dravidan literature symbolism is the art of expression and there is a joy in the discovery. I am not ashamed of sex (but porno) because the very sexual act is through which I have been born in this world. Sex is divine because it is the karma (act) of creation. During sex, if one is aware of the "Self", the very act becomes the stepping stone to the non-dualistic (advaita) state: the act, the action and the actor dissolves into one state of bliss.

I have experimented this fact that during sex, if I am too focussed on "my" body, "my" pleasure (duality), then the act is not complete neither to myself nor to my wife (pre-mature culmination).

But when I am aware of the fact that I am the witnssor, the witness and the witnessed, then the whole experience is under control (extendable to the time we desire) and the whole act is complete and both of us sink in bliss.

This is the essence of Kamasutra (Kama-shastra) that vyatsyanana gave us. This is why in Indian tradition SEX is divine. at the same time for religious reasons celibacy is to be practiced. Celebacy is asked to be observed when one is focussed only as being a mere body doing a physical act. When one is tuned with the "Self:" then there is no need for celibacy, infact sex becomes divine.

This is why all indian temples have the divine act of sex carved in the temple premises to remind us that it is a wonderful ,means to the "Self". This is also the foundation of Tantric Sex.

[TorryJens]

Dear idiappam

What do you thing is the essence of Andal and Abirami Bhattar. Then we can discuss what kama.

Devotion, I guess, as far as I have read!

Now, comes a new word 'essence'! Reminds me of some vanila and apple pudding flavours! To the kitchen now!

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

'transcends' to some Vedic things. How much more confusion are the Vedic going to cause??

Dear Idiappam
Is "peace" a vedic thing?. Why did the chinese lady help the man?. It was for peace. The transcendance Imentioned wastowards Peace,because that is the real state. Everyone strives to get that peace.

You are right Idiappam, that Peace is a vedic thing. That is why now people are turning towards vedas. Thereis growing number in those who do Yoga and meditation to get peace.

Since you have thebottom line hatred towards the word Veda, you have no peace of mind. So you interpret the Vedas in the way you want to and do not want to know the Truth.

You have no idea of God and you talk about arya and dravida gods.

My suggestion to you is to serve people (Anbe shivam) and get into the first basic step towards peace. Then you will get the glimpse of the what Vedic stuff is. Transcend yourself from your hatred mind to loving mind...transcend from your dividing mind to uniting mind..... Transcend from your ignorance to knowledge (holistic view). Om Shanthi Shanti Shanthihi (Peace peace peace).

[Paul Bunyan]

Idiappam Sir
Abhirami Bhattar and Andal had so much devotion to their Gods.
Their "kama" is not the materialistic sex we see in movies.I think it is something beyond that.I do not know how to explain them to you.Perhaps you can explain that as you are well read! What i'm trying to say is that they are holy books to me.
Kamasutra is a book about love making.I have not read it.I do not know the philosophical meaning of Kamasutra.Perhaps well read person like Pradheep can explain philosophical meaning to you.

I respect your opinion to consider "kama" content of ancient Indian literature as "filth".you are entitled to opinion.But i do not consider these things as filth.