[Big A]

to rohit

praying/meditating is (in my view) the best medicene . many have recieved relief and peace after confesions, if this is the power of the mind, then why do you not accept prayer as a good thing???

[MannoFr]

Dear Avii
The invaded and the invaders were both praying God and so the one who did the most powerful praying WON.

[tgs]

Praying/meditating is (in my view) the best medicene.

Dear Avii,

It maybe, in your view, the best remedy, but subscribing to it for all occasions and situations is neither a good idea nor a good practice. It simply becomes an overdose of the same type of NLP and the consequences are even more dangerous than the original disease itself; as one would end-up using the same type of NLP in every situation, simply because he/she wouldn't know the alternatives that are far better and effective in those situations.

In nutshell, in the long run, such reliance on such NLP becomes serious impediment to the overall cognitive development of the whole society as evidently proved by our dismal historical record. And the prevalent cognitive incapacity to realise that fact even now demonstrates nothing but the continuation of the detrimental effects of such NLP, I am afraid.

The dissonance reduction process, which is already set in motion, is nothing but NLP. The more one engages in such dissonance reduction processes, the more one demonstrates the process of NLP in action.

Nonetheless, such NLP does seem to work for some in reducing the severity of dissonance experienced from such unpleasant situations; and there is nothing whatsoever they would do to overcome that reliance.

So, those who have undergone such NLP, please carryon praying, on all occasions and in every situations; but don't bother to respond to this post, simply because it wouldn't count as praying.

Thank you and good luck!

[Drugmachine]

rohit
"please carryon praying, on all occasions and in every situations; but don't bother to respond to this post, simply because it wouldn't count as praying."

is eating when one is not hungry, still eating ??????? so praying all the time and on all occasions , is not praying!!!!

one should always give praises to god, there is no such thing as a time to prayer and time when one shodld not. prayer should be done as much as possible , the mind should be trained so that prayer should come as a natural as breathing.

[Slonopotam845]

i have never come across anyone, who had any negitive effects from praying.

Rohit i really dont know where you are really comming from in the sense that the philosophy you speak of , but i appreciate a different point of opinion , it gives me better undertanding in my own beliefs.

[9mm_fan]

i have never come across anyone, who had any negitive effects from praying..

This cannot be perceived just from coming across someone who prays on all occasions and in every situations but from grasping the relations and correlates of the overall historical records that result from such blind following by the masses, completely jeopardising the overall development of the society in general.

Like I said, in the long run, such reliance on using such NLP based blind beliefs on all occasions and in every situations becomes serious impediment to the overall cognitive development of the whole society as evidently proved by over a thousand years of our dismal historical record. And the prevalent cognitive incapacity to realise that fact even now demonstrates nothing but the continuation of the detrimental effects of such NLP based blind beliefs, I am afraid.

......i appreciate a different point of opinion , it gives me better undertanding in my own beliefs.

Thank you Avii for your appreciation. However, I have nothing more to add to what I have already said.

Please carryon with whatever NLP based personal beliefs that work for you and make you happy; but be cautioned, there is no truth in such beliefs, none whatsoever. It is the psychological effects that such NLP based beliefs produce, which are then wishfully believed as real - i.e. through self-deception; that is all there is to it, nothing more, nothing less.

[MannoFr]

I am not interested in debating on "why do we chant mantras". But, I can tell you why I chant mantras:

* The mantras I recite are in languages different from English, and it provides me an opportunity to learn what they mean.

* Sanskrit mantras are structured to make them musical. I enjoy setting them to different tunes, which is something I can not do if I read the English translation.

* Kids find Shloka chanting as an interesting activity, and I think that it is better for my kid to get involved in it than watching TV and violence.

* I like such activities that involve fewer people than watching a game or a movie
with 100 people and spitting out or listening to some opinions which are probably not valid
beyond one day.

Subu

[brraverishhh]

I am not interested in debating on "why do we chant mantras". But, I can tell you why I chant mantras:

* The mantras I recite are in languages different from English, and it provides me an opportunity to learn what they mean.

* Sanskrit mantras are structured to make them musical. I enjoy setting them to different tunes, which is something I can not do if I read the English translation.

* Kids find Shloka chanting as an interesting activity, and I think that it is better for my kid to get involved in it than watching TV and violence.

* I like such activities that involve fewer people than watching a game or a movie
with 100 people and spitting out or listening to some opinions which are probably not valid
beyond one day.

Subu

Protecting kids from knowing the 'ins and outs' of the wild world is one of the worst possible excuses parents and society in general normally use to justify praying and the chanting of mantras, instead of explaining them the factual reality of the world and guiding them in finding better and effective ways to face the world as it is; and change it for a better one, if at all possible. A gradual process of self-actualisation, but much better process overall, though only a few can actualise, but those who can, can change the whole world.

[Lt_Apple]

I think that it is better for my kid to get involved in it than watching TV and violence. Dear subu
You are right. Kids who see all this violence at very young age grow up thinking that violence is normal and grow with no clue about "Self" and truth and think chanting mantras is a belief system. Look at Sidhhartha, whose parents thought like you and did not show anything bad in young life, later became the Great Buddha, who was one among other great people to change the world. So if you think Budhha's life is an example, then please continue your wonderful parenting. What we need to teach our children is to seek their "Self", the source of love, joy and happiness. If they grow without this knowledge they end up polluting the world and destroying not only mankind but the whole planet.

[NeroASERCH]

Right on there Pradeep.

I have to also agree with Rohit to some extent " explaining them the factual reality of the world and guiding them in finding better and effective ways to face the world as it is; and change it for a better one". I think this will come at a later stage. You don't want to force a child to grow up too soon and parents being too protective can be negative. As individuals with adult minds, we need to go through some thorns in growning and developing our minds and build character. What is important is to be taught the rights and wrongs and know them when you go through such thorns; in otherwords, to prepare you so you come out of it successfully.

It's something like what I see around me with little girls from Paksitani parents. They are covered from head to toe from such a young age with no freedom to enjoy their girlhood. I mean this in a good way. Later in life, they have no way of distinguishing who they are from what has been imposed upon them from such an early age. They may never have even thought about it other than accepting it - what they know from an early life to be the only right way or thing. This is just my opinion.

[tgs]

I have to also agree with Rohit to some extent " explaining them the factual reality of the world and guiding them in finding better and effective ways to face the world as it is; and change it for a better one". I think this will come at a later stage. You don't want to force a child to grow up too soon and parents being too protective can be negative. As individuals with adult minds, we need to go through some thorns in growning and developing our minds and build character. What is important is to be taught the rights and wrongs and know them when you go through such thorns; in otherwords, to prepare you so you come out of it successfully.

It's something like what I see around me with little girls from Paksitani parents. They are covered from head to toe from such a young age with no freedom to enjoy their girlhood. I mean this in a good way. Later in life, they have no way of distinguishing who they are from what has been imposed upon them from such an early age. They may never have even thought about it other than accepting it - what they know from an early life to be the only right way or thing.

Exactly Goodsense; a very good post indeed. I would just add the following to what you have said.

In fact, explaining and guiding kids in their development begins at much earlier stage than an average parents would normally know. And it is there, where the ability of parents to judge the right time and strike the right balance between preaching their kids dogmatic blind beliefs and teaching them to find out and face the factual reality of life, comes.

[Ifroham4]

As a matter of courtesy, I would like to take this opportunity to wish all our FH friends:

A Very Happy and Enchanting Diwali

AND

A Very Happy and Prosperous New Year - V.S. 2063

[doctorzlo]

As a matter of courtesy, I would also like to take this opportunity to wish all our FH friends:

Eid Mubarak

[Beerinkol]

Happy Deepavali to all of you.
We celebrate every year birthday for our body, because the body was born on a particular day and we are constantly aware of only the body. But there is a subtle aspect beyond the body which in scientific language is "Consciousness" and the religous word is "God" and Vedic name is "Brahman or Atman".
Do we celebrate birthday for our inner "Self". This inner Self is like a light that gives us "life'. Deepavali is the birthday of that inner light, which most of the time we are not aware of. Our wise ancestors understood the importance of being aware of our inner Self or light and hence made us celebrate Deepavali, which means to be "Aware of the inner light". For our body's birthday we blow "off " light, because this body will also one day blow off. But on Deepavali we lit "light" which is to remind us of the inner light.
Knowing this inner light, one understands inner peace or joy or Ananda. This is symbolized by eating and distributing sweets and the joy of eating sweets does not equal to one zillionth of the joy knowing our inner Self. Light removes darkness of Ignorance and that is symbolized of gods killing Asuras or demons.
The Mahalakshmi is the symbol of light and she is described as Hiranya varna, the color of the bright golden light. Mahalakshmi pooja is done on deepavali days to remind of this wealth of light in us. Knowing this inner light is the real wealth or lakshmi. All other wealth gives comfort to the body and Lakshmi to the Atma.
So friends do not celebrate deepavali as a mere ritualistic festival. Deepavali is the birthday of your "Inner Self, the guiding Light". Happy (Birthday) Deepavali to all of you.
More details in http://sakthifoundation.org/deepavali.htm

[LottiFurmann]

Pradeep, just found something that supports what you said about the "inner light". Read on to the end.

"With the realization of the Atman, comes universal compassion, love, and the awareness of the oneness of all things (higher knowledge). This brings Ananda (Inner Joy or Peace). Deepavali celebrates this through festive fireworks, lights, flowers, sharing sweets, and worship. While the story behind Deepavali varies from region to region, the essence is the same - to rejoice in the Inner Light (Atman) or the underlying reality of all things (Brahman).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diwali

This ties in so well with the recent arguments between you and Rohit i.e to know the underlying realities of all things, not only some or only the good or only the bad or evil.

[9mm_fan]

As a matter of courtesy, I would like to take this opportunity to wish all our FH friends:

A Very Happy and Enchanting Diwali

AND

A Very Happy and Prosperous New Year - V.S. 2063

rohit , what did you mean by new year 2063 ????

[Lillie_Steins]

Inner Light Thanks you good sense

SRS,
why should it be represented as "Light"?. Because without light the eyes cannot perceive. The eyes perceive when objects reflect light. This is why the Self is represented as light. So the inner light is that by which "everything becomes perceptible". The other name is consciousness-awareness, without which there is no knowing. Everything is only chemical reactions including the phenomenon in the brain. But the inner light or sat-chit-ananda (Consciousness-awareness) is the one that is the perceiver, perceiving and perceived.

[MannoFr]

Inner Light

But the inner light or sat-chit-ananda (Consciousness-awareness) is the one that is the perceiver, perceiving and perceived. How is the inner light all three things at the same time: perciever, perceiving, and perceived?

[MannoFr]

How is the inner light all three things at the same time: perciever, perceiving, and perceived? Note: I use this symbol (?) when i dont have an exact word to represent it.

Everything is Consciousness, which means the created creation and creator is Consciousness (Inner light, Brahman, God, Soonya etc).

We left the discussion earlier about perception. when we look at a flower, the eyes look at the flower, but does really the eyes look at the flower. It is the mind that looks at the flower. (A dead body's may have eye lid open, but we do not say the eye looks at the flower ).

So there is something more subtle that looks at the flower, than the matter (body- here it is eye). We call it as mind. Mind is nothing but thoughts. The mind (manas) has various thoughts. These thoughts can be taken into consideration or rejected. So there is still subtler aspect than the mind. That we call as intellect or Buddhi. Buddhi is that which can discriminate thoughts and can consider it or reject it.

This intellect grows out of experience and the one that is aware of the changes of this intellect, is still more subtler and is called is called awareness or "Chit". But this awareness is conditional which means , it is expressed based on the "body" vehicle it assumes.

Nonetheless, there is the subtlest unconditional awareness which is the fundamental of all the above body, mind, intellect and awareness. This is called as Consciousness. So the body, mind, intellect and awareness when operate we call it as life. When awareness drops, we say it is dead, no life. Awareness"Shiva" then becomes "Shava".


To know all the aspects of body, mind, lntellect, awareness we have to tranncend from the gross body to subtle mind to subtlier intellect and to the subtlest awareness and finally to Consciousness. The irony is that all these are only Consciousness, but because of our ignorance we do not know this.

Awareness does not change in respect to an individual. When I look at a flower I say I am aware of a flower. When I look at a cell phone i say i am aware of cell phone. When i look at a car I say I am aware of a car. Now flower, cell phone, car are thoughts in me which i am aware of. The thoughts are changing , but the fact that I am aware of is not changing. Awareness is not changing, only things that I am aware of is only changing. Hope you are clear with this.

To be "aware of" I, dont need anything else. Even without things or thoughts or objects, I am still "Aware". Right?. So my real nature is only "Awareness'". But this awareness can identify (?) other gross forms of awareness, like intellect (higher grossness), mind (more grossier) , body (matter) (grossiest).

Now let us go to the science (knowledge) of perception.

so the grossiest matter (eye) does not perceive another grossiest matter (flower) for that matter even another awareful human being. It is the less grossiest mind that actually looking at the flower. For the mind to look at a flower it needs eyes. So eyes are only the medium. If the mind is not there then there is no sight of the flower. The light signals from the eyes touch the retinal and excites electrical signals which the brain interprets as a flower. Here the eyes are made of molecules and the interaction of molecules with the light causes biochemical reactions which are passed to the brain. Brain is also made of molecules which does biochemical reactions , when the electrical signals reach them. So there is only plays of biochemicals. When eyes confronts a flower, then what is that sees a flower. If light of flower falls on the eyes , then what is that is seen? where is awareness of a flower come into being?

Then what is perception?. Perception is awareness meeting (?) awareness. Here is what we have to be clear. Flower is Consciousness, eyes are Consciousness, brain is consciousness. Perception is only consciousness interacting (?) with Consciouness.

what is then awareness?. Awareness is that conditioned Consciousness perceiving a conditioned consciousness in the form of flower. But when I say "I" am looking at a flower , then it is Ego.

What is Ego?. When I say I am different from flower and I am a human. The duality not recognizing "Onenesss - Consciousness" is Ego.

So Consciousness appear as flower, appear as human and there is perception. So it is the Consciousness (light) is the one that is the perceiver, perceiving, and the perceived. But it is the Ego that says "I" perceived , not aware of the Consciousness. Why it has no awareness of Cosnciousness. because it identifies with matter (body). What is the ego, it is a self created false identity to gross matter and not the subtle aspect. Who created it and how does it go?. That is the story of Evolution. The details of these are found in all vedic texts like upanishads, Tirumandiram, in other saivate, viashnavite, sakthi texts.

Many modern Neurologits (like Dennett for example) miss the whole understanding because they think Consciousness is generated or located in the brain. It is awareness that is generated by the neuronal firing. The difference of life and death is only the difference of Awareness and Cosnciousness. Consicousness is not localised , it is everything, the living and dead. it is unchanging. It is the awareness that changes based on the interaction fo biomolecules.

This can be understood by the famous example of Adi-sankara , stepping on the rope and projecting as snake. What that means is that all these perceptions we experience is not real (which means changing) and the only reality is the Consciousness. Which means that the rope is the fundamental reality , but it is projected as snake (unreal) due to ignorance.

Summary: The whole thing is only Consciousness, but because of Ego (identification to gross ignoring the subtle) is the fundamental flaw. The Ego has to transcend from the gross (body) to the sublte mind and again to the subtlest, intllect and again to the more subtlest intellect adn further down to awareness and fianlly cosnciousness.

if you look at evolution this is the sequence. The lower animals are only aware of their body. The higher evoled transcend to the mind state showing emotions. But man is the one who can go still to the subtlest of the intellect. More evolved humans then transcend to the still subtler "Awareness", aware of awareness.

This is the concept of all rituals (to the body), then comes bhajans sings and chanting for the mind, then reading scriptures for the intellect and then meditation for awareness and samadhi is transcending to the Consciousness, the ultimate reality.

Be aware of one fact, with this human body are we identifying with our body, or mind or intellect or the awareness. Every human should do this self introspection and evolve to God-hood which means to Consciousness.

SRS, hope I have answered your question how it is the same Consciousness that is the creator, creation and the created. From the subtlest to the gross it is only the Cosnciousness. Then it is the subtle that idnetifies the same subtlest in everything. Then isnt "all three things at the same time: perciever, perceiving, and perceived" is the inner light or Consciousness.

Please read the above posting and at any step it is not clear we can discuss that.