[doctorzlo]

Hello Friends,

I Have been much interested in obtaining Hindu connections in Arabia. Lets discuss Hinduism which existed in Arabia, Iran and other middle eastern countries. To begin with i shall post a link which corroborates the Presence of Hinduism in Arabia. Kindly put out ur thoughts which would help all of us to explore the greatness of our culture.

Regards
Indian224080

The entire article can be found at.
http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoft...i/vpopia1.html


Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 1
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many centuries before prophet Muhammad and the destructive advent of Islam, Arabia or Arabistan was an extremely rich and glorious center of Vedic civilization. In this article, I will prove to you point by point that pre-Islamic Arabia was in fact a flourishing civilization which revered Vedic culture.

It is the prophet Muhammad and the followers of Islam who are fully responsible for the dissemination and destruction of this once glorious culture.

In learning about this most ancient heritage, let's begin with the word Arabistan itself. Arabistan is derived from the original Sanskrit term Arvasthan which means The Land of Horses. Since time immemorial proponents of the Vedic culture used to breed exceptional horses in this region. Thus eventually the land itself began to be called Arva (Horses) -Sthan (place). The people who lived in this land were called Semitic. Semitic comes from the Sanskrit word Smritic. Arabs followed the ancient Vedic Smritis such as Manu-Smriti as their revered religious guides and thus they were identified as Smritic which has been corrupted into Semitic.

At that time the Uttarapath (Northern Highway) was the international highway to the North of India. It was via Uttarapath that Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries drew their spiritual, educational and material sustenance from India. Besides, this Sea-links were formed with India at least 800 years before the advent of Islam. Basra was the ancient gateway to India because it was at this port that the Arab lands recieved Indian goods and visitors. At that time the spoken language was Sanskrit, which later dwindled into the local variation that we now call Arabic. The proof of this is that thousands of words that were derived from Sanskrit still survive in Arabic today. Here is a sampling of some:


Sanskrit Arabic English
Sagwan Saj Teakwood
Vish Besh Poison
Anusari Ansari Follower
Shishya Sheikh Disciple
Mrityu Mout Death
Pra-Ga-ambar Paigambar One from heaven
Maleen Malaun Dirty or soiled
Aapati Aafat Misfortune
Karpas Kaifas Cotton
Karpur Kafur Camphor
Pramukh Barmak Chief


Even various kinds of swords were referred to as Handuwani, Hindi, Saif-Ul-Hind, Muhannid and Hinduani. The Sanskrit Astronomical treatise Brahma-Sphuta-Siddhanta in Arabic translation is known as Sind-Hind, while another treatise Khanda-Khadyaka was called Arkand. Mathematics itself was called Hindisa .

The Arabs derived technical guidance in every branch of study such as astronomy, mathematics and physics from India. A noted scholar of history, W.H. Siddiqui notes:

"The Arab civilization grew up intensively
as well as extensively on the riches of
Indian trade and commerce. Nomadic Arab
tribes became partially settled communities
and some of them lived within walled towns practised agriculture and commerce, wroteon wood and stone, feared the gods and honored the kings."

Some people wrongly believe that Arabs used the word Hindu as a term of contemptuous abuse. Nothing could be further from the truth. The people of pre-Islamic Arabia held Hinduism in great esteem as evidenced from the fact that they would endearingly call their most attractive and favourite daughters as Hinda and Saifi Hindi. The fact that Arabs regarded India as their spiritual and cultural motherland long before the damaging influence of Islam is corroborated by the following poem which mentions each one of the four Vedas by name: (The English translation is in black)


"Aya muwarekal araj yushaiya noha
minar HIND-e
Wa aradakallaha
manyonaifail jikaratun"

"Oh the divine land of HIND (India)
(how) very blessed art thou!
Because thou art the chosen
of God blessed with knowledge"

"Wahalatijali Yatun ainana sahabi
akha-atun jikra Wahajayhi yonajjalur
-rasu minal HINDATUN "

"That celestial knowledge which like
four lighthouses shone in such
brilliance - through the (utterances of)
Indian sages in fourfold abundance."

"Yakuloonallaha ya ahal araf alameen
kullahum
Fattabe-u jikaratul VEDA bukkun
malam yonajjaylatun"

"God enjoins on all humans,
follow with hands down
The path the Vedas with his divine
precept lay down."

"Wahowa alamus SAMA wal YAJUR
minallahay Tanajeelan
Fa-e-noma ya akhigo mutiabay-an
Yobassheriyona jatun"

"Bursting with (Divine) knowledge
are SAM &YAJUR bestowed on creation,
Hence brothers respect and
follow the Vedas, guides to salvation"

"Wa-isa nain huma RIG ATHAR nasayhin
Ka-a-Khuwatun
Wa asant Ala-udan wabowa masha -e-ratun"

"Two others, the Rig and Athar teach us
fraternity, Sheltering under their
lustre dispels darkness till eternity"


This poem was written by Labi-Bin-E- Akhtab-Bin-E-Turfa who lived in Arabia around 1850 B.C. That was 2300 years before Mohammed!!! This verse can be found in Sair- Ul-Okul which is an anthology of ancient Arabic poetry. It was compiled in 1742 AD under order of the Turkish Sultan Salim.

That the Vedas were the religious scriptures to which the Arabs owed allegiance as early as 1800 B.C. proves not only the antiquity of the Vedas but also the existence of Indian rule over the entire region from the Indus to the Mediterranean, because it is a fact of history that the religion of the ruler is practised by his subjects.

Vedic culture was very much alive just before the birth of Muhammad. Again let's refer to the Sair-Ul-Okul. The following poem was written by Jirrham Bintoi who lived 165 years before the prophet Muhammed. It is in praise of India's great King Vikramaditya who had lived 500 years before Bintoi. (The English translation is in red).


"Itrasshaphai Santul
Bikramatul phehalameen Karimun
Bihillahaya Samiminela
Motakabbenaran Bihillaha
Yubee qaid min howa
Yaphakharu phajgal asari
nahans Osirim Bayjayholeen
Yaha sabdunya Kanateph natephi
bijihalin Atadari Bilala masaurateen
phakef Tasabahu. Kaunni eja majakaralhada
walhada Achimiman, burukan, Kad, Toluho
watastaru Bihillaha yakajibainana
baleykulle amarena
Phaheya jaunabil amaray Bikramatoon"

- (Sair-ul-Okul, Page 315)



"Fortunate are those who were born
during King Vikram's reign, he was
a noble generous, dutiful ruler devoted
to the welfare of his subjects. But at
that time, We Arabs oblivious of divinity
were lost in sensual pleasures. Plotting
& torture were rampant. The darkness of
ignorance had enveloped our country.
Like the lamb struggling for its life
in the cruel jaws of a wolf, we Arabs
were gripped by ignorance. The whole
country was enveloped in a darkness as
intense as on a New moon night. But the
present dawn & pleasant sunshine of
education is the result of the favor of
that noble king Vikram whose benevolence
did not lose sight of us foreigners as we
were. He spread his sacred culture amongst
us and sent scholars from his own land
whose brilliance shone like that of the sun
in our country. These scholars & preceptors
through whose benevolence we were once again
made aware of the presence of god, introduced
to his secret knowledge & put on the road to
truth, had come to our country to initiate us
in that culture & impart education."


Thus we can see that Vedic religion and culture were present in Pre-Islamic Arabia as early as 1850 B.C., and definitely present at the time of Mohammed's birth.

In his book Origines, Volumes 3 & 4", Sir W. Drummond adds:

"Tsabaism was the universal language of mankind when Abraham received his call, their doctrines were probably extended all over the civilized nations of Earth."

Tsabaism is merely the corruption of the word Shaivism which is Vedic religion. On page 439 of this book, Sir Drummond mentions some of gods of pre-Islamic Arabs, all of which were included in the 360 idols that were consecrated in the Kaba shrine before it was raided and destroyed by Muhammad and his followers. Here are some of the Vedic deities and their original Sanskrit names:


Arabic Sanskrit English
Al-Dsaizan Shani Saturn
Al-Ozi or Ozza Oorja Divine energy
Al-Sharak Shukra Venus
Auds Uddhav -
Bag Bhagwan God
Bajar Vajra Indra's thunderbolt
Kabar Kuber God of wealth
Dar Indra King of gods
Dua Shara Deveshwar Lord of the gods
Habal Bahubali Lord of strength
Madan Madan God of love
Manaph Manu First Man
Manat Somnath Lord Shiv
Obodes Bhoodev Earth
Razeah Rajesh King of kings
Saad Siddhi God of Luck
Sair Shree Goddess of wealth
Sakiah Shakrah Indra
Sawara Shiva-Eshwar God Shiva
Yauk Yaksha Divine being
Wad Budh Mercury


The Kaba temple which was misappropriated and captured by Muslims was originally an International Vedic Shrine. The ancient Vedic scripture Harihareswar Mahatmya mentions that Lord Vishnu's footprints are consecrated in Mecca. An important clue to this fact is that Muslims call this holy precint Haram which is a deviation of the Sanskrit term Hariyam, i.e. the precint of Lord Hari alias Lord Vishnu. The relevant stanza reads:


"Ekam Padam Gayayantu
MAKKAYAANTU Dwitiyakam
Tritiyam Sthapitam
Divyam Muktyai Shuklasya Sannidhau"


The allusion is to the Vamana incarnation of Lord Vishnu whose blessed feet were consecrated at three holy sites, namely Gaya, Mecca and Shukla Teertha. Worshipping such carved, holy foot impressions is a holy Vedic custom which convert Muslims are inadvertently perpetuating. But in doing this they delude themselves and mislead others that these foot-impressions which are on reverential display in several mosques and tombs around the world are in fact Muhammad's own. There are several snags in this argument. Firstly worshipping a foot -impression amounts to idolatry and should therefore be taboo for a true Muslim. Secondly Muhhamad disclaimed having performed any miracles. Therefore there can be no foot-impression of his on stone. Thirdly foot-impressions must always be in pairs like shoes. Yet in most of these shrines, it is usually a single footprint which suggests that Muhammad walked on only one foot. Another question that crops up is whether the foot-impression is of the same size and foot in all the shrines. The fact appears to be that when the Vedic Kaba shrine in Mecca was invaded by Muhammad, the pairs of foot impressions of Vedic deities there were plundered and later traded to the gullible and devout as Muhammad's own footprints for some favour, reward or personal gain by unscrupulous muslims. That is why they are single and not in pairs.



Figure 1.
The Shiv Ling at The Kaba. It was broken in seven
places and now is held together by a silver band.

The Black Stone which is the Shiv Emblem (also known as Sange Aswad which is a corrupted form of the Sanskrit word Sanghey Ashweta--meaning non-white stone) still survives in the Kaba as the central object of Islamic veneration. All other Vedic Idols could be found buried in the precincts or trampled underfoot in labyrinthine subterranean corridors if archaeological excavations are undertaken. The Black Stone has been badly mutilated, its carved base has disappeared and the stone itself is broken at seven places. It's parts are now held together by a silver band studded with silver nails. It lies half buried in the South Eastern portion of the Kaba Wall (Refer to Figure 1). The term Kaba itself is a corruption of the Sanskrit word Gabha (Garbha + Graha) which means Sanctum.

In addition, in the inscriptions from Hajja and its neighborhood was found a votive vessel dedicated by members of two tribes called Rama and Somia. Rama and Soma are Vedic deities, Rama is of the Solar dynasty and Soma is of the Lunar Dynasty. The moon god was called by various names in pre-Islamic times , one of them was Allah. Allah had 3 children, Al-Lat, Al-Uzza and Manat. Al-Lat and Al-Uzza were both feminine deities. Alla is another name for the Hindu goddess Durga. It is obvious that the goddess Al-Lat was Alla (Durga) and Al-Uzza was Oorja (energy or life force also known as Shakti). Manat was none other than Somnath which is another name for Lord Shiva. One significant point to note that Soma in Sanskrit means Moon and Nath means Lord. Thus the Kaba itself was dedicated to the Moon God Somnath alias Shiv and the word Somnath was corrupted to Manat. The famous Black Stone is none other than the ShivLing of Makkeshwar alias Mecca. Lord Shiva is always shown with a crescent Moon on his head and every Shiva temple is supposed to have a sacred water spring representing the Ganges. The Crescent Moon pinnacle of the Kaba and the Zamzam spring (actually Zamza from Ganga) are irrefutable testaments to the Vedic origins of the Kaba.

Figure 2 below depicts the image of Maqam-E-Ibrahim in the Kaba.



Figure 2.
Maqam-E-Ibrahim or more appropriately the pedestal of Brahma.

Muslims from all over the world pay homage to this shrine. This shrine is actually the pedestal of Brahma. Notice that the word, Ibrahim is actually a corruption of the word, Brahma. The octogonal grill which is a Vedic design, protects the holy footprints which represent the start of the creation nearly 2000 million years ago. Before it was captured by the Muslims it was an international shrine of the Vedic trinity.

In fact the names of the holiest of Muslim cities Mecca and Medina come from the Sanskrit words Makha-Medini which means the land of Fire-Worship. Even the most ancient names of these 2 cities were Mahcorava- which came from Mahadeva (Lord Shiva) and Yathrabn - which came from Yatra-Sthan (place of pilgrimage).

Islam came into being about 1372 years ago. It is well known that over 7500 years ago, at the time of the Mahabharat War, Kurus ruled the world. The scions of that family administered the different regions. Prophet Muhammed himself and his family were adherents of Vedic culture. The Encyclopedia Islamia admits as much when it says: "Muhammed's grandfather and uncles were hereditary priests of the Kaba temple which housed 360 idols!"

According to Arab traditions, Muhammad is a title. We do not know what name his parents had given him. We do however know that the central object of worship which survives at the Kaba today is a Shivling. That was allowed to remain there because that was the faceless family deity of Muhammad's family. One of the original names of Lord Shiv is Mahadev (The Great God) therefore it is entirely possible Muhammad came from Mahadev. This appears fairly certain because the Arabs still have a Mahadevi sect. Moreover the title Mehdi of a Muslim chief is also a malpronounciation of the term Mahadeva. According to Sanskrit etymology the term Muhammad implies 'a person of great inspiration' - 'Mahan Madah yasya assau Muhammadah' In a hostile sense it also implies 'a person of a proud and haughty temperament'.

The Qurayshi tribe into which Mohammed was born was particularly devoted to Allah and and the three children of the Moon God. Therefore when Muhammad decided to create his own Divine religion, he took innumerable aspects of the daily Vedic culture that surrounded him and corrupted them to suit his needs. It was with the advent of the Prophet and Islam that the death-knell of the glorious Arab culture was sounded. With Islam came the flood of destruction, murder, plunder and crime that destroyed the great Vedic heritage of Arabs. The Prophet merely took some existing artefacts and terms and corrupted them so profoundly that no one would be able to discover their actual origins.

In my next article, I will elaborate further on the Vedic Heritage of Arabia.

Note: Works of P.N. Oak and Robert A. Morey have been used to compose this article.

[Drugmachine]

Hindu Numerals
--------------------------------------------------------
Hindu system is a pure place value system, that is why you need a zero. Only the Hindus within the context of Indo-European civilisations have consistently used a zero.
Our decimal system is descendent from this system.


The earliest number symbols in India
In 3000BC the Hindus culture flourished and large numbers were used (inscriptions).
From the middle of 2000BC Indo-European tribes were making their way from the N.W. towards India. They introduced Sanskrit - earliest knowledge of maths from this time.

In Sanskrit there are number words for 1-9, 10, 100 and further powers of 10 - up to 10 - definitely a decimal system.


Brahmi Numerals
Brahmi inscriptions have been found all over the subcontinent of India - date from C3BC.
UNITS (digits) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
TENS (enciphering) 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90
HUNDREDS (place value 100 2x100 3x100 ......
THOUSANDS notation) 1000 2x1000 3x1000 ......



The existence of special symbols for the figures 1 - 9 was a typical and important characteristic of Hindu arithmetic and provided the prerequisite for the rise of the decimal place - value system.

Tens were written with individual symbols - obstacle on the way towards a consistent place value system.

From 100 onwards numbers were represented according to another principle - 2 new symbols 100 and 1000 - named place value system.


Extending Hindu system towards a place value system
What was favourable to the development of a decimal place value system in India?

Hindu counting system was purely decimal and distinct symbols for the numbers 1 - 9 existed already.
A notation for high powers of ten existed already.

Hindus used counting boards - had tens units columns.

A lot of astronomical activity at this time - had to use large numbers. They knew about Babylonian place value system - knew about greek astronomy and its notation and may have encountered the small circle indicating a zero.


The later place - Value System
The most important as well as the most widely used place - value symbols are those belonging to the Nagari script numerals 1 - 9, very similar to the Brahmi numerals.
Nagari numerals are very similar to our own.

In books about AD570 they were writing

241960,

- digits arranged in normal way zero is used, place value notation is used for the numerator and denominator of the fraction.

This system quickly came into use - probably earliest symbol for zero was a dot and not a small circle.


Hindu Numerals among the Arabs
Knowledge of the Hindu decimal system was early in reaching the West (AD662).
On its way to the West the Hindu method of writing numerals soon became known to the Arabs who had established a world empire from the 7th Century. Many mathematical books from the Greeks and Hindus were translated in Baghdad and travelled the West.

The Arabs played an essential part in the dissemination of the numeral system - no number system of their own.

Al-Khouarizmi was the first Arab to explain the Hindu system of numerals. He wrote an "Algebra" and "Arithmetic" about AD820 - These have both come down to use via Latin translations.

Al-Khouarizmi's Arithmetic is the first Arabic work in which the decimal place value system and the computing operations based on it are explained. He explained in great detail how the value of the numeral changes when it is put in another place. He was also aware of zero.

In C8 a specific Arabic alphabetical style of writing numbers emerged based on the Greek. At about the same time a place value system appeared in which the numbers were represented by the so called East Arabic numerals with a special symbol for zero. They were a modification of the Brahmi numerals - some countries use them (Egypt).

The so called West Arabic numerals are contemporary with the East Arabic numerals and likewise stem from Hindu figures and are forerunners of our Western figures.

In the West Arabic numerals one dot indicates tens, 2 dots hundreds so it is not a complete place value system.


3 6 8 = 368 and 3 . 8 = 308


Later the symbol for zero (0) was introduced from the East.
As a consequence of trade between the Orient and Moorish Spain the Hindu figures came to North Africa. The merchants didn't understand the place value system but later the pure place value system from East Arabia gained acceptance. All that was needed then was for the zero to join the other 9 figures and dots to disappear.

[softy54534]

This is probably not entirely relevant here..............but for want of a better thread, I'll post it here anyway.

http://www.samachar.com/showurl.htm?...ine=NRI~voted~

And here's the BBC link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...history5.shtml

[Drugmachine]

http://www.salagram.net/VWHMid-East.html

[brraverishhh]

http://www.salagram.net/VWHMid-East.html

Excellent Link tfmlover. Indian Govt. though has lots of evidences is hesistant to send a Archeological team or even request to the Arabian Govt. Many of our people are not that educated on the glorious past of Hinduism. Its high time we educate the people with such evidences.

Thanks and Please keep contributing .
Regards
indian224080

[NeroASERCH]

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the...dic_temple.htm

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/questio..._taj_mahal.htm

[Beerinkol]

Here is a link to Zoroastrian texts:

http://www.avesta.org/avesta.html

Zoroastrianism and Vedic Hinduism share much in common. Really amazing when you think about it. I will write more on this when time permits.

[Lt_Apple]

The second part of this pdf is relevant here, the first part probably in the Mahabharata thread.

http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/MahabharataII.pdf

[brraverishhh]

The French Researcher Abbe Dubois ( a familiar person to Max Muller)) in his Hindu Religion, Customs and Practices seem to say that some important features of Hinduism of the North were from Middle East but not so categorically (itemised manner) as above. He says that the word Brahma is from Abraham (Arabic: Ibrahim) (In Abraham, remove prefix A- and compare the rest of the word ). Further says Manu is corruption of the word Noah. Accounts of the Great Deluge are compared. The Jews may have got Brahman from Egypt as Gilbert Slater traces Brahma's origin to that country. Brahman existed in pre - Vedic Age.

However Siva is from South India and in the beginning of the Vedic Age, he was not accepted as a god. A subsequent compromise landed him as the last in the pantheon or trinity. Dubois says the Hindu Trinity developed after the doctrine of Blessed Trinity in Catholicism. and was a subsequent event in Hinduism.

But the mode of worship in Pre-Islamic Arabia was somewhat identical to that of India according to most historians I have read.

[Big A]

Further says Manu is corruption of the word Noah. I dont understand what say you!

Could you say that in English, please ?

[9mm_fan]

Further says Manu is corruption of the word Noah.

I dont understand what say you!

Could you say that in English, please ? Sorry, I shortened it too much and sacrificed clarity.

I will reconstruct in proper sentence as follows:

"Abbe Dubois further said in his book that the word "Noah" had corrupted and changed to "Manu".

Noah > nuu > (ma)nuu.

So he hinted that the word Manu was somewhat forged by adding "ma" which is maha = great. So it means: the great Noah.

ma (Tamil) > maha (Skrt), ma is the Tamil form.

[TorryJens]

Thanks for the bit, b_m

Has he shown any evidences that suggest characters "Abraham/Ibrahim" existed in the "Hebrew literature or epics" were "older" than that of the character "BrahmA" existed in the Sanskrit literature of Hindus

[9mm_fan]

The tale of Manu, of the great flood (as against Manu, the author of the Smriti, an entirely different person), existed prior to the composition of the Rig Veda (or atleast part of it). This can be inferred from the fact that references to this Manu (of the flood) are found in the Rig Veda. Just to quote a few verses, you may want to look up Rig Veda 1.14.11, 1.31.17, 1.36.10.......(according to Ralph Griffith, Hymns of the Rig Veda, Vol 1, there are more than 80 seperate references to Manu in the Rig Veda).

Besides these numerous references in the Rig Veda, Manu is also referred to in the Brahmanas, the Puranas and the Upanishads (especially in the Mahabharata).

The Bhagavata Purana claims that this Manu (of the flood) was actually a Dravidian (South Indian) king of the name Satyavrata, who was adviced and guided by the Matsya incarnation of Vishnu to build a boat and transport himself and the Seven Sages to the northen mountains.

The Bhagavata Purana story regarding Manu and the flood is detailed in Canto 8. The particular reference to Manu as a Dravidian king is in 8.24.13 http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto8/chapter24.html
Ram

[Lt_Apple]

Thanks for the bit, b_m

Has he shown any evidences that suggest characters "Abraham/Ibrahim" existed in the "Hebrew literature or epics" were "older" than that of the character "BrahmA" existed in the Sanskrit literature of Hindus

From the way it proceeded, Dubois presented that piece as somewhat conclusive and my assumption is that he was of the mind that the Torah was older than the Vedas. I was surprised when I read it.

I did not see any character comparison. You are welcome.

Ramraghav wrote:

The Bhagavata Purana claims that this Manu (of the flood) was actually a Dravidian (South Indian) king of the name Satyavrata, who was adviced and guided by the Matsya incarnation of Vishnu to build a boat and transport himself and the Seven Sages to the northen mountains.

The Bhagavata Purana story regarding Manu and the flood is detailed in Canto 8. The particular reference to Manu as a Dravidian king is in 8.24.13 I was getting ready to bring in linguistic evidence to show that the word Manu is a Dravidian /Tamil word. Also, that in his book there may have been insertions later because of certain contradictions which were also adverted to by one of our hubbers in the now-removed Manu Smirithi thread. It awaits completion.

I believe that Manu was from South. Thanks to Ramraghav for his illuminating post.

The Arabs believed that Nabi Adam descended in Tamil Nadu. Please see my post under thread Kumari Kandam. It may have some relevance.

I wrote:

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:21 pm Post subject: the common source
From an account given by naavalar aRinjar abduR Rahim, in his introduction to Muslim Poets, (Universal Publications), the Tamil Land was the first place the first man (Adam according to MiddleEastern tradition) stepped his foot on when he descended from heaven .................................................. ...etc.................etc.....................and also have been found in Arabic (see Swami Njanaprakasam's works) , it is not suprising to find words common to Arabic and Northern because all those words came from the common source Tamil.

[Lillie_Steins]

--deleted--

[Ifroham4]

Great posts Bis_mala, ramraghav. The world seems to be very small indeed.

Two queries though

//However Siva is from South India //

Wasn't the earliest form of Siva worshiped in Indus valley civilization which was a dravidian civilization.

//I believe that Manu was from South//
Do you mean he was Dravidian or that he was from Southern part of India.

If the loss of Kumari Kandam is accepted, then it should have spread from there to the North (Indus Valley). If it is still doubted, then of course, the Indus Valley Civilisation may be taken as the earliest evidence until further evidence is unearthed.

Manu from the South, I mean the Dravidian/Tamil South.

[Paul Bunyan]

Friends,

According to the founder of Thesophical Society,
the Indian Brahmin who went to Israel, left God's way i.e., Brahma's way and hence became A-brah am.

The name Adam- cames from Sanskrit Adi, one, and Eden from Aham are the findings of many Christian Indologist.
uppuma.

[HedgeYourBets]

Friends,

According to the founder of Thesophical Society,
the Indian Brahmin who went to Israel, left God's way i.e., Brahma's way and hence became A-brah am.

The name Adam- cames from Sanskrit Adi, one, and Eden from Aham are the findings of many Christian Indologist.
uppuma.

For ideological reason, philosophers such as Voltaire in 18c ACE showed much interest in replacing Biblical tradition with a more distant Oriental source for European culture. Sanskrit was closer to the Proto-Indo-European and hence, European scholars were happy to choose India over China as the homeland of earliest recorded evidence for their culture. The linguistic theories flourished and one of the reasons was that India was under European domination for quite some time.(happiness over cultural affinity).

The Biblical tradition states that men started to build a tower to heaven, God became angry and punished them by making them speak different tongues so that they could not understand each other and could not conspire anymore. All languages started from there; if the story is true and all must be of equal age!! In the 18c not many scholars in Europe wanted to pay much attention to what the Bible had to say about the origin of world languages.

Anyway, there are still many scholars who think that Sanskrit is a foreign language that came into the sub-continent. That also conveniently explains why we can find in Skrt so many words which have equivalents in Indo-European.

According to current linguistics, aadhi does not have equivalent in Indo-European. It has a homonym in Tamil with identical meaning. The word is "aakuthal" = coming in existence, becoming. Root is "aa" or "aaku" and thi is a suffix which can be found in many other words. Hebrew sources say that "adam" came from their word meaning dust or mud, meaning God created man from dust or mud!!

I have written here and in other threads about Brahma and how the word derived. Scholars differ. Where there are too many disagreements, it is usual for linguists to conclude that the word is of unknown origin. Brahma is pre-Vedic and Brahmin priestly order is post-Vedic. Cannot reconcile.

As I pointed out, pre-Islamic tradition of Arabia stated that Adam descended in TN.
Adam might well be a word from Kumari Kandam, Lanka or TN.

[Drugmachine]

Wasn't the earliest form of Siva worshiped in Indus valley civilization

Tats wat I rem. reading in my history text bk at school......He was then known as Pashupati.....?

[Drugmachine]

A few questions for Mr Ramraghav.

The literary evidence centers on the fact that Siva is featured prominently in the Rig Veda, implying that acknowledgement of Siva is atleast as old as the Rig Veda. The question then becomes: how old is the Rig Veda?

How do you say that "Siva is featured prominently in the Rig Veda" when He did not exist at all in the Rig?

It is difficult to acertain exactly how old it is, but internal Rig Vedic evidence suggests that atleast a part of it was composed much before the H-M phase of the I-S. This evidence centers on the geography of the lands desribed in the Rig, which does not correspond to the H-M region (this served as the strongest support for the now thouroughly discredited AIT). It turns out that this geography (particularly relating to the river Saraswati) relates closely to the earlier sites in the I-S civ (such as Mehrgarh and Nausharo) but not the newer ones (like Harappa, Mohenjodaro and Dholavira). How was the geography extracted from a book mainly containing 'chants'. Any ideas on which lines of the Rig matched the geography of the 'earlier' Mehrgarh etc?

Of late attempts have been made (by Subash Kak and others) to date the Mahabharata. If we were to accept their conclusions regarding this, and accept 3137 BCE as the date of the war, and accept the theory that Vyasa was the author of the Mahabharata and the arranger of the Vedas, it follows that the Vedas (atleast partly) predate the Mahabharata. What has the date of the war incident got to with the date it was narrated and written down? - That you can safely rely on the date of the incident and ignore the date of its writing and pin-point the date of another writing the Rig-Veda?

This supposition also makes sense in the light of ¿¡«ø §Å¾ ¦¿È¢ as mentioned in the Purananooru poem (its in the Tamil Lit thread, in case u r interested). Some songs of the puranaanooru were written after the Vedic period... even during the Bakti period.. Tamils new what existed around them - like the vedas.

We can now claim, with significant riders, that
1. The Vedas (atleast in part) predate the Mahabharata war. The Mahabharata war occured in 3137 BCE. No! The war occured in 3137 perhaps... But when was that story narrated by 'Vyasa'?

2. The Rig Veda (atleast in part) can be placed in the Mehrgarh phase of the I-S civilization. Any lines, as 'internal evidences', from the Rig?

3. The Rig Veda (atleast in part) was carried and transmitted by the 7 sages from southern to northern lands (i.e. the earlier sites of the I-S civ). This implies that this part of the Rig Veda (or whatever it was known as at that time) must have been older than the earliest settlements in the I-S. I don't see the relationship there! 7 sages comming down and the I-S settlement and the Date of the Rig!

And yes, this whole analysis does not directly address the question of exactly how old the Rig Veda is, Agreed! It does not, at all address the date of the Rig!

for it has led to this further question: how old is the civilization in south India? Anyway never mind... But how does this question arise?[/tscii]