[Paul Bunyan]

naavenna naavE naaraayaNaa ennaa naavenna naavE

here, the name "Narayana" has been used."raman" and "sita" has been used in purananuru song as ramraghav pointed out.
Has the name "Krishna" been used as is in any Tamil literature?

[Fegasderty]

FSG.........any idea on the date of Chozhan seruppazhi erindha Ilanjetchenni?
Thanks
Ram

[doctorzlo]

Ramraghav
Thanks a lot.So, purananooru mentions ramayana too long before Ilango Adikal!!!
Please see the link
http://www.geocities.com/promiserani2/c1473.html
where the song "Vadavarayai mathaki" is explained by ilango adikal.

Lot of stories associated to Lord Krishna is known by Ilango Adikal.He must have known the Bhagavatham very well indeed.And he denotes Krishna as God inspite of modern scholars calling him a Jain monk!

[Slonopotam845]

Can you please tell where I can find those lines in the Silappadhigaram? Also, if the Mahabharata contains references to the Singhalas, doesnt that auomatically become suspect? The Singhalas are a relatively new culture (exactly how new I am not sure).

[Slonopotam845]

I actually tried to research a bit on how ancient the Greek civilization itself is! Funnily, the Bronze Age civilization of Greece began in 3000 BC!!

The Minoan period stretches from 3000 - 1200 BC! And has been named after the legendary king Minos. Now, MB itself is supposed to have occured 5000 years ago, which, giving enough of leeway for all historical fallacies that might occur, still occurs c.a. 2500 BC!

[Lt_Apple]

'வற்கலையர்; வார் கழலர்; மார்பின் அணி நூலர்;
விற் கலையர்; வேதம் உறை நாவர்; தனி மெய்யர்;
உற்கு அலையர்; உன்னை ஓர் துகள்-துணையும் உன்னார்;
சொற் கலை எனத் தொலைவு இல் தூணிகள் சுமந்தார்

Meaning:-
They know all martial arts.They wear sacred thread across their body.They are unmatched in arhcery.vedas reside in their tongue.They are truth personified as humans.They keep their words and speak beautiful words.


This is from Kamba Ramayana
Again ,kambar also uses the word "Veda" and says Vedam sits in the tongue of Rama and Lakshmana.Kamba Ramayana is dated 8th century AD by scholars.

[TorryJens]

The Mahabharata (m) is a wonderful work of religious literature that teaches us valuable lessons in moral justice and human duty. It is a work that shall remain timeless forever.

While there may be no debate on the nature of its contents, the Mahabharata (m) is perhaps controversial due to the nature of its origin. While some claim that it based on hard facts, some others claim that it is based purely on fiction. The fact that the Mahabharata (m) is essentially a piece of religious literate does not help either side.

This is because religion is essentially about belief - one may choose to believe or not to believe. And until the concept of God has been comprehensively studied and explained, each person will be justified in holding his/her religious beliefs.

Having said that religious literature is unhelpful to prove beyond debate the nature of its own origins, one is left with three options to analyze the said origins: geology, archaelogy and non-religious literature studies. The first two are fairly obvious and speak for themselves.

The third, non-religious literature, is acceptable as a historical account of ancient events simply because it is removed from the realm of belief and is based firmly on factual events that happened prior to or during the narrator’s lifetime. Further, such literature attributes itself to human origins driven by rational human behavior.

Personally, for sometime now, I have been interested in knowing whether the Mahabharata (m) is actually a work of fact, fantasy or a combination of both. I came across this poem in the Purananooru, a literary product of the third Tamil Sangam, in the library archives of the Tamil Virtual University (www.tamilvu.org) The Purananooru, being non-religious in nature, qualifies to be considered as an historical account. The qualifications of Tamil literature in general are strengthened by the fact that its claims have always been verified by geological, marine and archaeological studies wherever they have been conducted.

I present here the poem, along with a (attempted!) translation, and wish to draw your attention to a few references that seem interesting. Please correct me if there are mistakes in the translation.


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Purananooru - 2

Like Land, fertile in its content
Sky that lies high above the Land
Wind that brushes the Sky
Fire that is fed by the Wind
And Water that is opposite to the Fire
You possess the qualities of the five elements
Patience to forgive the mistakes of your foes, if they cross the line the Expanse,
Power and Fury to crush them and Benevolence to grace him if he relents
Your greatness has grown to such extent
Your noble head is held in such esteem that even the ocean will sink
In your land which houses so many cities, Oh ruler of this prosperous nation!
The sky is the limit of your fame
The Five men, sitting on horses with shaking heads, whose
Land was taken by those with the thumbai flower -
The Hundred men, when both were exhausted at the battlefield
You gave them sumptuous food without any limit!
Milk, which turned sour and day which turned night
In contrast to the principles of the four Vedas
Without change (of loyalty) with your trusted people, remain powerful all your life
May you live long, without (military) tremor, piling on your success!
Like wide-eyed deer, and its children,
Of the saints of past who did their duty,
Sleep in the protection of the three-headed lamp
So shall we live in the protection given by You, like the Himalayas and Podhiyam hills

Sung by Mudinagarayar of Muranjiyur, in praise of Cheran Udayan Cheraladhan who provided sumptuous food


Points of interest:
1. There was a war between a group of five people and a group of 100 people
2. This war was caused because the 100 people took away land which rightfully belonged to the five people
3. The magnitude of this war was such that it lasted several days and it flouted the principles of the four Vedas
4. Cheran Udayan Cheraladhan sumptuously fed both the warring armies.
5. This war occurred sometime during the period of the third Tamil Sangam (approx 18th to 2nd centuries BCE).
6. The existence of the four Vedas was known to the Tamil people of the time.
7. The Podhiyam hills (past/present not specified) were comparable in extent and proportions to the Himalayas.

[Beerinkol]

To think about it, the non-mention of Krishna must actually make us think. Why does a character who is supposed to have been held as God, not find any mention whatsoever in references to the war? Silapdhikaram has its own references to Krishna and his role, including "panjavarukku thoodu"

In the Mahabharatha per se, there is a mention of a Pandya king fighting alongside the Pandavas.

And look at the following, which Duryodhana descibes as being given to Yudhistra during the Rajasuya Yagna

And the Kings of Chola and Pandya, though they brought numberless jars of gold filled with fragrant sandal juice from the hills of Malaya, and loads of sandal and aloe wood from the Dardduras hills, and many gems of great brilliancy and fine cloths inlaid with gold, did not obtain permission (to enter). And the king of the Singhalas gave those best of sea-born gems called the lapis lazuli, and heaps of pearls also, and hundreds of coverlets for elephants. And numberless dark-coloured men with the ends of their, eyes red as copper, attired in clothes decked with gems, waited at the gate with those presents. This has been picked up from the Dyuta Parva Section 51 of the Sabha Parva of the MB

[MannoFr]

Dear Idiappam Sir
What are the oldest references to ramayana and mahabharatha in Tamil literature?the mythological stories.

Frankly, I don't. But I know Appar allocates on line in every Pathigam for Ravana. I have not read the Alwars well. But the Vaishnavite puranas are quoted by them -

Ongi ulagaLantha uthaman....
yasOthai iLam singam ...
--- Andal.

Silapadhikaram mentions lot of these mythological stories like churning of the parkadal using vasuki snake(vadakaraiyai mathakki vasukiyai nanaki made famous by MS), lot of incidences of the mahabharatha etc.is there any literature predating silapadhikaram which mentions legends of mahabharatham/ramayanam? By the time of Silapathigaram the stories have reached the Tamil Lands - See the Manaiyaraipadutha Kathai of Silappathigaram - even Manmathan was there!

[Slonopotam845]

Would it be too too far fetched to make the connection between Drona and Drona Pushpa?

I personally think it is far fetched, unless used as a poetic metaphor by the poet in question

That what I wonder. Someone must tell me, -- Is there any mention of the 'Drona pushpa' people in the Mahabharata - the original Sanskrit version! If there is, then we can be say, perhaps, that the Punaanooru Song refers to Mahabharata. Could you check please!

[softy54534]

Idiappam Sir
What is this thumbai flower? Its current biological name? This flower should be growing throughout India(Both in chera nadu and hastinapuri) for duryodhana to wear it.

Thumbai, a common weed in the tropics. Labiatae.
Leucas aspera (syn. Leucas zeylanica).

But the thumbai flowers are small, white, less than 10mm, about the size of a rice grain.

I don't know how the people wore that - garlands maybe!

[MannoFr]

Honestly, I am surprised by the analysis of the thumbai flower. This thought never occurred to me. However, I am a bit hesitant to accept the stated theories regarding the reference to this flower. To me it does not make any sense why Mudinagarayar would use a flower as a metaphor for a character who is clearly out of relevance in the concerned lines. Besides, Drona, as a character (if he did exist), is only peripheral to the story of the Mahabharata. Surely, Mudinagarayar could have picked more prominent and pertinent persona such as Bhishma, Karna or Krishna. To decide that Mudinagarayar was taking a cue from the character Drona seems a little hasty to me. Is it not equally likely that the thumbai flower was used because the 100 people were genuinely fond of (or identified with in some other way) with this flower? I consider Mudinagayar to have written this poem as a factual account of contemporary events; there would have been no need for him to use cryptic metaphors.

Please note that I have judiciously avoided usage of the terms ‘Pandavas’/ ‘Kauravas’ and have stuck to the terminology used by the poem itself i.e. ‘5 people’ and ‘100 people’. Though it is slightly unhelpful, the non-specific identification of these characters of interest could be explained by the presumption that the intended audience was already familiar with the events and characters portrayed in the poem.

While it is certainly a possibility, it is highly unlikely that the 5 people and 100 people who went to war over a land dispute arising from land-grabbing by the 100 people, as described in the poem, would be different from the 5 people and 100 people who went to war over a land dispute arising from land-grabbing by the 100 people, as described in the Mahabharata (m).

Considering this poem, it does appear that the war described in the Mahabharata (m) was based on historical fact. However, that is as far as I would go at this moment. To me, this poem does not provide any indication that the other characters and events portrayed in the Mahabharata (m) actually existed and happened.

Here are a couple more references to the same event:

º¢ÄôÀ¾¢¸¡Ãõ - ÁШÃì ¸¡ñ¼õ - ¸ðΨà ¸¡¨¾: 55-56
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¾¢Õ¿¢¨Ä ¦ÀüÈ ¦ÀÕ¿¡û þÕ쨸

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µ÷³Å÷ ®÷³õÀ¾¢ýÁ÷ ¯¼ý¦ÈØó¾
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§ºÃý ¦À¡¨ÈÂý Á¨ÄÂý ¾¢Èõ À¡Ê

(¦À¡¨ÈÂý, Á¨ÄÂý = §ºÃ÷ ÌÊô¦ÀÂ÷)

To think about it, the non-mention of Krishna must actually make us think. Why does a character who is supposed to have been held as God, not find any mention whatsoever in references to the war? If he was such an important player in the general scheme of things, how come he is completely omitted? The war is fact, we can say. But what about the rest? What was Vyasa writing? Fact, fiction or fiction building on fact?

As for the mention of the Vedas, may I point out that the poem refers to the ‘4 Vedas’ but does not specify them as the ‘4 Vedas in Sanskrit’? Mr. Sabapathy may remember what I told him in a PM long time back.

P.S.: There is one more reference in the Akananooru (233). Could someone please provide a translation (I would take ages!)?

[tgs]

Ramraghav
especially note the lines
"
nadandha_adi panchavarkkuth thoodhaaka nadandha_adi madangalaay maaRattaay maayamO marutkaiththE
"

Here Lord Krishna is mentioned as the messenger of peace for the "Panchavar"(Pandavas)

[HedgeYourBets]

Hmm, this is interesting to find out...does anyone know the Sanskrit/Hindi name for the Thumbai poo?

Hindi: chOtA halkkUsA (chota halkusa)
Sanskrit: drona pushpi

[NeroASERCH]

¿¡«ø §Å¾ ¦¿È¢¾¢Ã¢Â¢Ûõ

So,the word "Veda" has been mentioned in purananuru itself.Purananuru is dated 600BC,the oldest Tamil literature. I thought Vedas were always mentioned as "Nan Marai" by Tamils.So,ancient Tamils have known the sanskrit word "veda" too.Definitely, they must have known its contents and must have mastered it.

Viggop a few point on your posts above.

1. Purananuru is not written by one author! It has 400 songs by many poets spanning a few hundred years. You can't fix its date as 600BC. The authour of this paricular song - Mudinagarayar of Muranjiyur - came someone tell me his date...

2. Nan marai does not and need not refer to the four Sanskritic Vedas. Please note that there were only 3 vedas when Manu smriti was written sometime in 2nd or 3rd Century CE. Manu mentions only three Vedas. (Do you want the verses of Manu?)

3. The words 'naal vedas' appears in Sangam literature, Thirumurais, and Vaimozhi etc. - but none of the Vedas were named - Rig, Saman, Yajur, Atharvan, - in Tamil Literature till the 13th Century - Meikandar!

[radikal]

Dear Idiappam Sir
What are the oldest references to ramayana and mahabharatha in Tamil literature?the mythological stories.
Silapadhikaram mentions lot of these mythological stories like churning of the parkadal using vasuki snake(vadakaraiyai mathakki vasukiyai nanaki made famous by MS), lot of incidences of the mahabharatha etc.is there any literature predating silapadhikaram which mentions legends of mahabharatham/ramayanam?

[brraverishhh]

Dear Idiappam Sir
Since the english translation given by ramraghav says South Indians, i thought it mean bharatha nadu only.

ANyway, who are these "Bharathars" and "Vadugars". Which part of India are these tribal people from.Strange that they are known as "barathars"(they believed themselves to be descendants of mythological king bharatha?)

[PhillipHer]

Idiappam Sir
What is this thumbai flower? Its current biological name? This flower should be growing throughout India(Both in chera nadu and hastinapuri) for duryodhana to wear it.

[doctorzlo]

Hi Viggop I would be cautious on this.............the date of 2nd century CE for Ilango Adigal is rather ad-hoc, and probably even more ad-hoc is the timeline referred to by Senthilkumars.

[LottiFurmann]

Idiappam Sir
This particular song mentions the sanskrit word "Veda".Also, the poet says "Veda Neri".So, he must have read the Vedas to say the "dharma of veda".It might not be the 4 vedas as we know today.I dont know which books he referred to as "Veda".But it definitely must have contained "dharmic paths" so that the poet could use "Veda neri" and king can accept it.

i still think this song must predate Silapadhikaram.
Or do you think this purnanuru song could be after 13th century?

Sanskrit name is "Drona pushpi".related to Dronacharya by any chance?

Is this King Manu referred in Tamil literature.I know about mythological characters like Manuneedicholan but any other literature mentions the word "Manu".

really interesting,is it not?!