[Peptobismol]

Friends,

Mr.Idiyappam is bent upon saying meaninglessly against Indian Vedic Tradition, which Valluvar is Openly supports.

Why Keep on saying Badly on 4000 year old, when 2000 years later Tamils were of equal or worser, as Sangam Lit. Proves.

Please accept both and take only good, and stop Bad Mouthing against one, if you do on one, certainly other would bring the next side.

Follow Tirukural

Anchaneya

[NeroASERCH]

Dear Mr Anjaneya,
I grew up in an orthodox ambience, belived that vedas are the greatest repository of knowledge. But it all changed when I startted reading vedas rather than reading articles that blindly praise it. Let us talk like knowledgable adults, to begin with let us talk about Rig veda, I have read it completly, In short it is about i) praising a bunch of war gods by saluting them with encomiums. ii) Claiming victory over dark skinned people thanks to the aryan valour. iii) Animals are created so that they can be sacrified, once sacrificed how should you eat them.....The list goes on like this. I never found even one funda there to be anything that closely resembles sacredness or even knowledge worth appreciation. If I am wrong please enlighten me. Please reply so that we can have a objective talk about Rig veda, rather than blanket sweep statements like it is great , that is great etc.
Please do not compare Thirukural with any of the vedic litreature, to vedas secularism is anathema, to thirukural it is the crux.

[doctorzlo]

Dear Mr. Mahadevan/Anchaneya,

Good to see the point you are trying to make.
I would like to join this too. I think as of now I stand with Anchaneya. Let me see if I change....

And by the way Mr. Mahadevan, Where did you study vedhas?
Did you read it by yourself? Which language? Sanskrit or Englishor any other language translation? Because if you start reading versions other than the original then the author might have put in his views and perspectives in to it .. .might be....

And I would strongly condomn you saying that I have read Rig veda. ( Rig veda, I have read it completly as you have said). I trust You have just read it. Not studied it.

People who read such an ancient script will never say , I read it completely and I understand it fully.... and jump in to some conclusions like point 1,2,3 and the list goes on like this....

You are making fun out of Rig Vedha the ancient ever script in India and of course of yourself too...

I dont want to argue any point .. but please do think twice before making such statements.

Anchaneya,

keep it up.

[Lillie_Steins]

Dear Mr Indrajit,
If often get only such comments when I ask for what is sacred in Rig veda, Never once have I gotten a reply that stated, hey this is great/sensible in Rig veda. Please let us not get personal here. Please provide me with quotes from Rig veda that make it sacred. I always read that translated Rig veda is highly error prone. I understand that when we translate a literary creation in another language we do lose some of the originality but not the essence, English is after all not such an incapable language to convey thoughts. Let us follow any work snaskrit/english that you prefer, please show me some great philosophical stuff.

Food for though : the word Siva many claim to be of tamil origin, with the derivation coming from word sivapu for color Red, In Rig veda he is addressed as Rudra, the root being 'Rud', which means RED in almost all IE group of languages. It clearly says that the name siva was translated to rudra in vedic, but because the common man always used siva, that term still continues in India. Vedic friends claim that rudra means ferocious, that looks more like a conotation rather than a denotation, the latter yields to etymology.

[HedgeYourBets]

Mahadevan asked Indrajit:
Please provide me with quotes from Rig veda that make it sacred. He can't, for there is nothing sacred there! Looting, robbery and plunder - Yes plenty of verses there in the Rig. Nothing sacred!

[Paul Bunyan]

From my perspective everything in Rig.... looks okie...

Including the Caste System prescribed in the Prusha Sooktam of the Rig?

[softy54534]

What about drinking soma? What is it all about?
If it kicks me off then I may understand the vedas, perhaps.

[Ifroham4]

Originally Posted by Indrajith From my perspective everything in Rig.... looks okie...

Including the Caste System prescribed in the Prusha Sooktam of the Rig?
If European countries could have thought off the varnasrama that India had long ago they might have been far far better than what they are ..... is not a statement by me..

They have given things in Rig which is fine with me always but it is we , the ill-minded people who screwed it up to our needs and manipulate them and put the blame on vedhas as we always do....

[S.T.D.]

Originally Posted by Idiappam Originally Posted by Indrajith From my perspective everything in Rig.... looks okie...

Including the Caste System prescribed in the Prusha Sooktam of the Rig?
If European countries could have thought off the varnasrama that India had long ago they might have been far far better than what they are ..... is not a statement by me..

They have given things in Rig which is fine with me always but it is we , the ill-minded people who screwed it up to our needs and manipulate them and put the blame on vedhas as we always do.... Oh, do you want to say that you have heard something about Einstein? I am quite sure that he did not mean the caste system. He himself faced something similar being a Jew in Germany!

[Big A]

Indrajit wrote
If European countries could have thought off the varnasrama that India had long ago they might have been far far better than what they are ..... is not a statement by me..


It is a shame that even today some people glorify discrimination based on color or whatever. Manu sashtra makes Hitler an angel. Few great men and a lot of morons cannot make a sucessful society, that has been the model for India so far (though in reality the few Great ones were not great but just limited access to other by supressing them in inhuman ways). In the west it is equality for all, that is what has made them great. Even in India states that adopted affirmative policies like TN are freaking out in the economic sense. When all those masses get educated all this inhuman glorification of heinious crimes would be properly dealt with. Sorry Indrajit you are a dying tribe !

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

Friends,

I sincerely regret the comoplete ignorance on part of Friends, who without understanding of either literature keeps posting meaningless articles.

Purushas Suktham looks at the Men by their working and expressed in a Poetic way; we should understand that it belongs to BCE2000, and TholKappiyam and Tirukural has full of Casteism.

Tholkappiyar is clear Education is denied to the 4th Caste, 4th Caste should not do other than Agriculture; where as others are permitted to.

Bible is full of Racism and Jesus openly Practised Racism as per Gospels, no use to compare Bible and Vedas.

As per Bible first five books called Moses Law or Towrat by Muslims God has given law to Sacrifice 400 to 1600 goats every minute daily, and the chief Bishop must eat 88 pigeons every day.

Casteism is mostly practised by Upper Caste Non-Brahmins for Economical Benefits.

So Mind Change is required and to blame them on Scripture is meaningless.

MosesSolomon

[NeroASERCH]

solomon wrote: I sincerely regret the comoplete ignorance on part of Friends, who without understanding of either literature keeps posting meaningless articles.

Non acceptance of your school of thought does not mean ignorance, it is simply rejection of those ideas.

solomon wrote: Purushas Suktham looks at the Men by their working and expressed in a Poetic way; we should understand that it belongs to BCE2000

discrimination is told in a poetic way justifies it, is it what they call poetic licence ?
If it belongs to BCE2000, it can talk of racism and it is justifiable ?


solomon wrote : Bible is full of Racism and Jesus openly Practised Racism as per Gospels, no use to compare Bible and Vedas. As per Bible first five books called Moses Law or Towrat by Muslims God has given law to Sacrifice 400 to 1600 goats every minute daily, and the chief Bishop must eat 88 pigeons every day.

totally irrevalant for this discussion

solomon wrote: So Mind Change is required and to blame them on Scripture is meaningless.

If you keep following the scriptures, your mind cannot change

[Fegasderty]

Purushas Suktham looks at the Men by their working and expressed in a Poetic way; we should understand that it belongs to BCE2000, Ok, lets examine the verse:

12 The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya made.
His thighs became the Vaisya, from his feet the Sudra was produced.
Rig Veda, 10:XC:12
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10090.htm

So there you are... you glorify the vedas, Solomon?? Why?

and TholKappiyam and Tirukural has full of Casteism. Where???

[tgs]

marappinum othukkolalaagum paarpaan pirap
pozhukkam kundrakk kedum

Therindhavargal idhai enna sollappogindrargal???

[PhillipHer]

paarppaan = kOyil kAriyam paarppavan.

Could have been anyone. Not necessarily the ancestors of present day brahmins.

Even up to now, there are temples in remote areas which are not looked after by brahmins!!

Do not read present day caste into kuRaL.

piRappu ozukkam = (enthak kudiyil piRanthaanO, anthak kudiyin piRapozukkam ).


Tirukural was looked as a Translation and explanation of Vedas, as per the Authors of Tiruvalluva Malai, few of which is quoted already in Tirukural Thread. - MosesSolomon ThirukkuRaL has nothing to do with the Vedas. It is also not a translation or explanation of the Vedas, which were made at different times by different authors, few of whom were unknown persons.

On the question of Aryan /vedic concepts and kuRaL, reference can be made to "Thiruvalluvar nool nayam" by Prof. Dr R.P. Sethupillai.

ThiruvaLLuvamAlai says that VaLLuvar wrote kuRaL as an original presentation. (muthal nuul ). "thAnE muzuthuNarnthu thaNdamizin veNkuRaLaal , aanaa aRamuthalaa an naankum" - nakkiirar.

"muppaalin mikka moziundenap pakarvaar, eppaa lavarinum il" - ( siRukarunthumbiyaar). There is nothing worth mentioning besides KuRaL , so says ThiruvaLLuvamaalai, so how could it be a translation?

By itself it is the vEtham: "vEthap poruLaai mikaviLangki" - (maangkudi maruthanAr ). mikaviLangki = it exceeded in its greatness any other religious or other exposition.
Translation enRaal eppadi 'mikaviLangkum"?

vaLLuvan sei thirukkuLai
maRuvaRa nan kuNarnthOrkaL
uLLuvarO man vAthi
oru kulaththuk koru niithi? (manonmaNiyam).

[Ifroham4]

Friends,

Bible is full of Racism and Jesus openly Practised Racism as per Gospels, no use to compare Bible and Vedas.

MosesSolomon

Please explain yourself, instead of making such blanket statemens.

[Slonopotam845]

Hi abbydoss1969,
One of the big mistakes we humans do about religion and religious books is that we consider those as holy, provided or inspired by so called God and worship it without understanding it. But the fact is that all the organized religions and its books are man made with limited knowledge with the purpose of gaining superiority over mass or intention to deceive and exploit the mass.

Even though I accept the above statement of Solomen about Bible, based on my detail study about Bible and history, I reject Solomen’s statement about Vedas with the same criteria. It is also equally dangerous to human kind.

In order to understand racism in Christianity you try to read the following
1. Pro-slavery transcripts of Amerian Civil war documents particularly Reverend Thomas Stringfellow (1856), a Baptist minister from Culpepper County in Virginia titled "A Scriptural View of Slavery:"
2. Reasons for Rwandan Genocides
3. Reasons for genocides of Jews before and during second world war.

In order to understand Vedas effect on human suppression, read books of any Dalit revolutionary leaders. The cruel caste (varna) system was/is the major and sole foundation of Vedas and vedic system (Varansaram).

I request you to just remove the viewpoint of looking religious books as holy and worshipping it (without reading and understanding along with actual historical impact on human beings). Just consider it as the works of our ancestors. I can write tons of posts about the bad parts of all major organized religions and its holy books. But considering the rules of this forum and nature of this thread, I am not writing here. If you want to know any more details, then pm to me.

[Paul Bunyan]

Sorry, but this topic has to be closed. Going too much into casteism is forbidden on our forums..

[Peptobismol]

What it means to be Tamils? Idli thosai, of course! If you don't go for that you cant be a Tamil!

[NeroASERCH]

I am sick of people just raving on about the greatness of tamil. To most people it sounds as though we are all fanatics.

This guy is perfectly right. By parading around this forum claiming htat Tamil is better than other languages or that Tamil is the "best" langauge...you are not helping yourselves or Tamil in anyway...in fact, it only makes people think of you as an extremist and it makes whatever langauge you are trying to boast look bad...