[spiveker]

It's nice to see people are at least having this discussion. I am an American male. Years ago my sister and I joined a guided tour (with a few other Americans and UK tourists) from Bangkok down into Trang making stops in between. It was pretty amazing; petchaburi, chumphon, and some underground temple in a town I've forgotten the name of, were highlights. I came back telling everyone how "amazing" Thailand was, and how great the people are.

My impression of Thailand was very positive before and after our visit. I had images of strip clubs in my mind assoc. with the Vietnam war and I think I though that stuff was in Vietnam. "sex tourism" wasn't even a part of my vocabulary until years later. It's amazing what you don't see when you're not looking for it.

Anyway, years later I met a thai grad student here in the states and we started dating. A year later were married. She completed her undergrad in bangkok and saw firsthand both the positive and dark side of tourism in thailand. For a long time I laughed at the though of someone getting on a 24-hr flight to go to the other side of the world just to XXX. Then the news got hold of it (or maybe I just started paying attention) and I think everyone here in America now thinks that thailand is one giant XXX. I think that says something as bad about American as it does Thailand. Before, when I mentioned Thailand, people usually responded with: "where?", or they had a fairly positive impression. That is currently not the case.

It's very, very sad to me, but I it is think a long time coming. The American media portrays everything in a twisted light, but thailand was really just asking for this. The solution seems so simple to me: close down the "red light" districts that tourists go to and start enforcing the law that makes prostitution illegal, at least for the sex offenders that fly there to XXX. Every culture has prostitution (and a population young girls whose lack of opportunity is replaced with sexual exploitation). The difference is that Thailand now seems to wear it on it's sleeve. America hides it so well you wouldn't even know that it goes on here, which it does. If prostitution is part of the thai culture, ok, but they need to understand how this is perceived in the eyes of foreigners if the want the rest of the world to take them seriously.

The Thai people are so sweet and kind-hearted. I've traveled everywhere and I can honestly say that the people I met in Thailand were the best. Thailand needs to take steps to deal with its image. The reality is that sex tourist are a very small part of tourism in thailand, but do a ton of damage to the image of the county.

[jessyhalm]

I have to admit,

Before I ever came to Thailand for the first time, I had already painted a picture of Thailand in my head based on movies, stories and most of all, stereotypes. The drink, the drugs, the prostitution and sleazy Bangkok clubs.

When my friends first discussed going there for a holiday, they had to talk me into it. I wasn't that keen.

Man, am I so glad they did!

I have returned twice a year since for different durations. 3 weeks, 6 weeks, 3 months, and I will do as long as I am able.

I am not a sex tourist, nor am I a beach bum, I just love Thailand. The people, the Temples, the food, the towns, the language, the mopeds......

The average foriegner DOES know Thailand exists,

the average foriegner DOES have the wrong perception of Thailand,

and the average foriener may NEVER go there in a lifetime.

It's only us lucky ones that know the truth!

[casinobonyanes]

It is usually true as I have tried to indicate. The smile, the walking away, the non-response to a question, answering a different question. A Thai is taught at home and in school to avoid conflict. After posting this morning I was chatting with a Thai friend about how one can square a principle of no conflict with a lawyer fighting your corner in a court case. A long and interesting discussion on how far a Thai lawyer can go in court without annoying the judges or being too forceful with the other side. She cited the example of her not getting on with her mother in law so she avoids her. She accepted that in the west the two would get together and attempt to sort their differences for the sake of the husband and grandchild but she can not do that here

The original poster made some interesting observations but I suppose naturally the focus has been on the sex industry.

To me I agree I have the perception that many Thais would avoid conflict outright and save face. But I also think there are situations that open conflict is something unavoidable for some.

[casinobonyanes]

Here's an interesting article from a few years ago, with a lot of interesting points made:

http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/a...ls.php?id=6889

[Fdhwzctl]

Noppelchen, I don't think it requires much imagination, but if you want me to propose a solution: I think if the goal was simply to uncouple the tourism industry from the sex industry, they could selectively enforce their anti-prostitution laws anywhere foreigners are traveling exclusively for sex. Ultimately sex tourism that exists in one of the many other countries around the world would presumably experience a rise. Hopefully those countries too will deal with these issues. And of course there's still the issue of all the women and children exploited through prostitution all over the world, but that is beyond the scope of this thread. To sight a list of thai political failures then say "maybe they do take it serious but there is nothing they can do" make me think you don't believe the thai people have a genuine interest in changing this perception. I believe they do.



Peacerichard, I'll take a lesson in the "thai way" from you another time, but please don't try and tell me that your average thai is not upset with foreign perceptions toward their country, that is of course if they are familiar with foreign perceptions toward their country at all. The thai community I know here in the states is familiar, and they're very unhappy about it.



If it's to have a major effect on tourism, presumably sex tourism is a major portion of tourism overall. I would love to see this issue put before the citizens of Thailand.

Forums are for the exchange of opinions and I was not trying to give you a lesson as you sarcastically put it. I was giving my view based on my experience of living here. That is often not the same as a tourist who visits, however regularly.

I do not think the Thais want to change the perception. It is not the Thai way, westernised or not. They walk away from it and pretend it doesn't exist. There are threads on this forum with posts from long-time posters, some not farang, one of which I have just read and clearly summarises their view. The issue doesn't need to be put to Thai citizens and it won't be. It is not a perceived problem for them. They can and do deal with it their way.

[casinobonyanes]

I don't think this is due to my ignorance or my friends' ignorance. ok, reality is not nearly as bad as the country's perception, but it is perceived as it is for a reason. if Thai people are so unhappy about this perception of their country, they maybe they should force their government (ehm, their what?) to eradicate abuse, trafficking, trade and exploitation of people, including children.

sorry I am so harsh.

I agree. I don't mean this as an insult to the culture and people of Thailand which in general as we can all agree is amazing and filled with wonderful people, but the "night life" doesn't only exist in Bangkok and Pattaya. Throughout the country there are places where people can go for "entertainment." Yes the stereotype is of the foreigner who only seeks this "entertainment," but that is a small percentage of the total, and the painful truth is that it is very much a fabric of society. Obviously not everyone participates, but the very fact that such establishments exist in plain view when in fact they are supposedly illegal should tell you something. It's a multi billion dollar cash cow, enough to corrupt police and politicians alike. So your sentiments are correct Betti, if that perception is something that people truly find offensive, then they have to start within their own institutions.

Here's an older article:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...708065224.html

Thailand's freewheeling sex trade pervades the kingdom, from Bangkok's famed but graceless neon-lit alleyways of Patpong to exclusive hostess bars, a vast network of massage parlours and decrepit brothels in every town and village.

The origins of the thriving industry are hotly debated, but many believe it was born at the turn of the century with the influx of mainly single male Chinese immigrants.

It then mushroomed during the Vietnam War when US servicemen on R and R flocked to Patpong and other red-light districts in Thailand which now attract male tourists from all over the globe.

Academic studies have valued the trade as being worth more than 100 billion baht ($A3.56 billion) a year, one third the size of the construction or agricultural cropping industries.

The National Economic and Social Advisory Council said in a recent study that massage parlour owners in Thailand pay a staggering 3.2 billion baht ($A113.94 million) a year in police bribes.

The issue hit the headlines earlier this year when tycoon Chuwit Kamolvisit, who owns six luxurious massage parlours, caused a sensation by claiming he paid police $US288,000 ($A410,168) a month to keep them away from his businesses.

The last major piece of legislation governing the industry, the Protection and Suppression of Prostitution Bill, was passed in 1996. It substantially increased penalties for selling children into the trade while reducing punishment for sex workers.

But go-go bar managers say the business operates with impunity under a network of police, military and government overseers who rake in astronomical profits from well-entrenched systems of bribes and other payouts.

"Why would they want to change this system?" said the manager of a bar on Soi Cowboy, a notorious Bangkok nightstrip which employs about 1,000 dancers and bar girls.

[fameintatenly]

Many people who know me do not know my x-husband, nor do they even know I was married to a man from Thailand for many years. When I mention that I once lived in Thailand, many people assume it was in connection with the military until I explain. Most people are merely curious and say positive things like 'I'll bet the country is beautiful', 'how did you like it?', etc. They ask about the food and weather.

My daughter has told me about meeting some people (guys in particular) her own age who ask her about the sex trade. The good thing about that is that she knows right off to stay away from them. There are others whom I have met when I visit her who have been to Thailand for a few weeks and come home experts. I must confess that I find this most annoying, since after all these years I am still clueless.

[pprropeciaaa]

Sorry you've lost me. Have you googled tourist stats for Thailand by country.

I did that once - fwiw.

http://www.thailandqa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23035

[phinno13]

just a thought:

let's pretend thailand shuts down all the XXXhouses, red light districts and whatsoever.

now who would have a better life or profit in any way?

[ ]the XXX? assuming they aren't some sort of sex slaves they would be unemployed

[ ]the people in thailand because now they can be REALLY proud of their country as the one and only country in the world without prostitution.
unfortunately there would be less tourists, but wasn'T that worth it?!

[ ]the thai tourist industries? oh sure... it would be in the news world wide... thailand is now a prostitution free zone! you can go there and enjoy the great culture without getting bothered by all the sex industries. and people from all around the world rush to thailand because they wanted to all their lifetime but never dared because of the XXX
err... sounds pretty unrealistic, right?

and no law on earth will completely stop organized crime. neither drug dealing nor this sick child-sex-slave ****

so all the sickos won't stop going there

besides... prejudices don't simply vanish in the heads of the people.


€€€€€€€€€€€€

just in case somebody gets me wrong:

my thesis is that people don't make vacations somewhere because something they detest is not there.
that is a necessety for even considering vacations there but no reason to go there.

for example i detest snow during my summer holidays. still i wouldn't consider vacations in jemen just because it's never snowing there, but i would refuse to spend my vacations in alaska because it's too cold there

[casinobonyanes]

i think thats probably true for every country in the world...

Most certainly and my intent was not to say that it only happens in Thailand. My country has plenty of shady red light type of areas, and the ever present massage parlours. But the difference is in the perception and "acceptance." While I suspect some sort of police pay off in certain aspects of American "entertainment," most of the time the law tends to crack down heavily with sting operations and the sort. With one exception the "entertainment" is illegal and it is enforced as such. Therefore the U.S. is not known for that sort of thing with foreign tourists.

On the other hand, as I stated in my other post, it is much different in Thailand. As Betti alludes to, most people who bring up that point about Thailand didn't do so by accident, it's an unfortunate perception that will take a concerted effort by many if they truly want to shed that image. And when billions of dollars are at stake, it's hard to do so.

[mnhloot]

Imho, most of your answers are too shallow.

[spiveker]

just a thought:

let's pretend thailand shuts down all the XXXhouses, red light districts and whatsoever.

now who would have a better life or profit in any way?

Interesting point, noppelchen. Your concern for the well-being of unemployed prostitutes warms my heart. However, I wasn't suggesting that Thailand abolish prostitution. It's already illegal there, but tolerated in an attempt to manage the spread HIV/AIDS. Probably a good approach. I was, however, suggesting that they take seriously "foreigners perceptions of Thailand" as a haven for prostitution and take steps to deter "sex tourism". You seem to disagree. I have many thai-born friends living in the US that would agree.

As for how this will damage the economy I guess really depends on just how much of the tourism industry comes from sex tourism. It may or may not be worth it.

Personally, when I travel, I am amazed at the range of foreign perceptions toward the USA: everything from extremely positive to extremely negative. Personally, it is in fact a matter of REALLY feeling proud of my country and how Americans are perceived around the world. It affects where I travel on vacation. It even affects to some degree what politicians I'll vote for. Obama acknowledged where and how America is perceived poorly around the world. He said he would try to improve this, so I voted for him. I'm not alone.

[rionetrozasa]

I have never been to Thailand, but the impression that people in South Africa get about thailand is that well firstly the sex industry is huge other than that the other thing is that in general Thai Women are extremely violent and have lots of violent outbreaks. I have spoken to many people in South Africa about what they think and that is the thing that most people brings up.

Is this true? Or what?

[Fdhwzctl]

just a thought:

let's pretend thailand shuts down all the XXXhouses, red light districts and whatsoever.

now who would have a better life or profit in any way?

[ ]the XXX? assuming they aren't some sort of sex slaves they would be unemployed

[ ]the people in thailand because now they can be REALLY proud of their country as the one and only country in the world without prostitution.
unfortunately there would be less tourists, but wasn'T that worth it?!

[ ]the thai tourist industries? oh sure... it would be in the news world wide... thailand is now a prostitution free zone! you can go there and enjoy the great culture without getting bothered by all the sex industries. and people from all around the world rush to thailand because they wanted to all their lifetime but never dared because of the XXX
err... sounds pretty unrealistic, right?

and no law on earth will completely stop organized crime. neither drug dealing nor this sick child-sex-slave ****

so all the sickos won't stop going there

besides... prejudices don't simply vanish in the heads of the people.


€€€€€€€€€€€€

just in case somebody gets me wrong:

my thesis is that people don't make vacations somewhere because something they detest is not there.
that is a necessety for even considering vacations there but no reason to go there.

for example i detest snow during my summer holidays. still i wouldn't consider vacations in jemen just because it's never snowing there, but i would refuse to spend my vacations in alaska because it's too cold there

Don't fully grasp your logic but the thread is about perceptions and one can not get away from the point that Thaialnd has this perception of sex holidays. That it not to say it is true but it is a perception; and a perception i suggest that Thailand for money reasons does not want to change.

What about the other perceptions of this beautiful country and peoples? Let's discuss other areas suggested by or leading on from the opening poster.

[corkBrobe]

So how can Thailand promote a better picture of itself to foreigners (not having a sex and the beach image for its country)?

Seems likes it’s easier said than done. But then again, the government has been so lenient on this and it does not take this issue seriously. Most Thais consider their country a Buddhist country that follows the teaching a Buddha, has good morals, etc. But on the other hand, their streets are still full of prostitutes, ladyboys, drugs and alcohol. Amsterdam has this image as well, but somehow it is better portrayed than Thailand’s. If you ask the average non-Thai what they think of Thailand it is usually sex and whores (sad but true, and a lot of Thais don’t seem to want to accept this fact).

[phinno13]

thank you. got it.

[L8fGLM4d]

> We can analyze this whole situation to death and offer our opinions, but in the end, it's their country and theirs to run it as they see fit. If enough people felt bad about how their country is perceived (and this goes for any country), then the people themselves have to change it, not any outsiders.

it may seem otherwise from the way I express my opinions, but I agree. I just tend to be a little stubborn about this particular one, sticking heads into the sand, because they are hurting themselves so badly.

[casinobonyanes]

Well here's another sad quote from the same link:

Quietly, though, Thailand appears to have accepted its role as provider of sexual services to the rest of the planet. All that can be realistically asked is that it sets about doing it as cleanly and kindly as possible: that means tackling poverty in the rural north and corruption in the police force, as well as properly addressing the problem of the trafficked and the underage. The country would be aided in the latter by more honesty from the NGOs who have been given so many millions of aid dollars to tackle these problems.

Travelling to Thailand for sex will continue. The brand is established. The beautiful young woman wrapped in silk with her demure but inviting smile is a feature of Thai travel posters across the world. The promise is of "happiness on earth"—the delights of paradise just a cheap flight away. Most of the traditional tourist attractions are disappearing. The country's beaches are overexploited, its forests shrinking and the islands poisoned by tourists' waste. But Thailand and its neighbours retain one renewable resource for the tourists that is not in danger of running out—the supply of poor, smiling women.
What is striking is how much money the small percentage of foreign tourists bring into Thailand. We are talking billions of dollars. Even though the article is 6 years old, that is a significant portion of the GDP.

I also concur that the western media isn't helping matters much. I mean, look at the movie 'Bangkok Dangerous' with Nicolas Cage. As the movie was set in Thailand, I already knew before I saw it there would be scenes set along some of the 'red-light' areas and lo and behold the Cage character is walking along one of those areas, and goes into, surprise, a go go type bar. It seems like it's obligatory for any foreign movie maker in Thailand to insert scenes with the red light districts in them, along with "alluring" and "exotic" images of scantily clad ladies dancing on stage. Really sad.

[Fdhwzctl]

and after all that avoidance and lack of discussion, it will collapse like a pack of cards. and it will collapse big time. very very painful lessons for all of us now who were part of it, all of us just trying to do our best according to our cultures. but if a team is to work efficiently, problems have to be addressed. even if it is a team of only Thais.

sorry, betti, can you expalin the point you arev making. you have lost me

[casinobonyanes]

When a westerner loses his temper you can see it coming; not so with the Thai in my experience. I think it's because they bottle things up more and keep the smile on. Until the can't hold out any more.

This is something that seems to be a commonly held notion, that Thais in general have 'mai pen rai' and will avoid all conflicts and whatnot. This isn't necessarily true. I was in a taxi once and it gave a mild ding to a car in the next lane in the middle of a busy Bangkok street. They both got out and the other driver was all attitude and was angry, and the taxi driver started yelling too. Thankfully a cop came by but I was afraid they were going to go at it.

I think Thais like anyone else in the world won't necessarily avoid conflict.