[neniajany]

I am a 30-something Australian women and would like to add a thought here, if I may.

I don't perceive Thai women to be subservient in the way that westerners understand "subservience" ... I see Thai culture, men AND women, perhaps just living their majority spirituality - Buddhism. Dharma (Buddhist scriptures) teaches that treating others and their needs as more important than yourself and your own needs is the only way to be happy for the long-term. And I don't mean every now and then - when you live in a primarily (95%) Buddhist culture you will understand that this is as much a part of their everyday life and understanding as knowing what vegemite is to an Australian. LOL. Interesting parallel but you get what I mean. It is an inherent PART of being Thai.

Treating others as more important doesn't mean to say that you are not important or that you should be stepped all over. I feel perhaps that people who are not aware of what Buddhism (Theravada Buddhism represents 95% of people in Thailand) and the study of the dharma means would perhaps misinterpret the happy, easy-going nature of the majority of Thai people.

The quote from trangam, above, is a perfect story-example of what I mean.

Where when a dog stole your bread you chased it so that you could add some butter to it. Where everybody gave and there was really nothing to ask for ... I see this, not just with westerners attitudes to deeply rooted spiritualities in Asian countries but also in our own western societies! and it pains me to think that a lot of westerners have this simple-minded view that happy, easygoing and accommodating natures = uneducated, not modern or equally arrogant and superior attitudes. This idiotic assumption is simply so far from the truth of who most Thai people are at heart that sometimes I could just ...... well, you get what I mean.

Anyhow, that's my thought on the subject of subservience. Just plain lack of understanding of a culture that has a better understanding of what creates happiness in your life than most other western countries that you could name, my own country included.

I do use a large generalisation here at times. Obviously not every person from Thailand or every westerner is as above. These are, on the whole, thoughts about the majority. I really think that as our world moves along, people do evolve, slowly, but nevertheless people still evolve and develop a greater understanding about what is important in life.

You just need to look around to see that

Goodness, that was a long one.

[DownloadMan]

teaches that treating others and their needs as more important than yourself and your own needs is the only way to be happy for the long-term. And I don't mean every now and then"",,
""Treating others as more important doesn't mean to say that you are not important or that you should be stepped all over How much time have you spent here?? and have you ever traveled by car or driven here??
What do you think of the Thai consideration for others on the street or in stores and shops,,in lines at banks and bus terminals and airports??

[neniajany]

Ok, it seems that I wasn't clear enough. The topic started on women being subservient to men.

I was referring to the close relationships aspect of Thailand. Not everyday life - that seems to be pretty much like most countries LOL. Naturally everyone is not driving around Thailand going "no, no, you merge first. After you! After you! Please go ahead of me."

Apologies for not being clear enough.

[Drysnyaty]

to me driving feels much more careful and considerate of others than back home, by the way. here, it's mostly accidents it seems. I've seen quite a few. there, you get erased off the road by aggressive, inconsiderate drivers who deliberately have a go at you. you just need to learn to think and react differently. you need to build up your driving instincts all over again, and then it starts making sense.

[LomodiorCon]

"There was a period of time when there was no issue of rights... because there was so much of love. So much love, that you and me would gladly serve another all our lives, because we would be sure we would be taken care of. So sure that no little part of use would be ignored. In fact it would never occur to us as being sub-servient, but instead the only choice we ever wanted to make. Where also women decided to care for the man who would bring home the necessities to raise a home. And if this scheme broke the woman would often be ready to take on the 'man's job'. Where the child never questioned the mother because the mother would know each and every bit of the child, even those secrets and would protect him or her against the entire society, if so be the case. Where love generated insight and empathy and where insights generated the needs of the other human being. Where when a dog stole your bread you chased it so that you could add some butter to it. Where everybody gave and there was really nothing to ask for. "

Do you think such a society ever existed or will or is it just utopia? In my region many believe it did and then came the invasions!

LOLz. Sorry this tangent way to post...

[DownloadMan]

Betti, I know that this might be somewhat off topic, But you have stated,

just because Thailand has been assigned the role of providing cheap labour and cheap goods for the rest of the world. While history shows us that,

Modern industrialization started in the early 1960s. Although the first Industrial Promotion Act was promulgated in 1954, it was only implement in 1960 with the establishment of the Board of Investment. The Act was revised in 1962 to promote investment in specific activities, mainly through tariff protection, tax holidays and reduction of taxes on imported raw materials and machinery. A new law was introduced in 1972 in accordance with the government's shift in policy from an import-substitution to an export-oriented economy.

Growing at an average rate of approximately 10 percent per year since 1960, in 1993 manufacturing accounted for more than 24 percent of the national income; employed 10 percent of the entire labor force; and accounted for 64 percent of exports, making it the nation's largest sector. I don't know why, maybe because of the Japanese occupation of Thailand during the war, and it is shown that the Japenese didn't cull workers as to gender or age when they needed work done and did work to death women as well as men and children,
But I did notice here that women were engaged in manual labor along side men in most forms of labor when I first came here on a merchant ship delivering import materials to Thailand well before 1960. I also seen the same things when I was in Viet Nam, where women are also said to be subservient.

at construction sites and rice paddies, you see women working alongside men doing hard manual labour. but you know what, they take it with dignity. they don't seem to lose heart. they always have a smile for you. and it just breaks your heart to see how much they work.

[DownloadMan]

Swimmer, Women here are mostly not subservient, but are fairly intelligent and believe in, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change, the courage to change the things I can,, And the wisdom to know the difference.
Most Thai men have a girly friend hid out somewhere, the wife knows it, but she might as well keep quiet as raising hell ain't gonna do no good.
Sure, now she can go get a divorce if he is willing and they make a deal, then it is just like a self divorce in the states, only they go to the Amphur and request a divorce and it is granted.
But if he says, No, unless you pay me 400,000 baht and I will walk away from everything, she can pay him or she can get a lawyer and force the divorce in court, the judge will split the holdings and she pays her lawyer.
So a friend of ours hasn't got the money for either option, so she is stuck.

So they just keep the peace and don't say much and get along as well as they can.
Most folks here are non-confrontational in most things, seem fairly happy with what they got and know that it won't do any good to be down about it as it just makes everyone unhappy.

[Drysnyaty]

FiP thanks for the info. I really don't want to and won't go into economic issues in detail, 1, it is off topic, 2, I have strong opinions that would start a fierce debate leading nowhere; so, let's just say it was really just background opinion regarding the status of women.

[ropinirole]

My husband wants to retire in Thailand, and he spent a lot of time there in the late 70's. Another good friend, a farang from California, lives in Hua Hin with his Thai wife, and his 35 year old son. My 35 year old son is there visiting right now. My point is, all of my feedback on life in Thailand is from men! It's a GIVEN that men will LOVE it there, but what about Western women? Can anyone give me feedback on retired life in Thailand from a Western woman's point of view?

[Knillagrarp]

If I were you, I would go for a visit first. Once you have spent about 20 days in the area where you plan to relocate, you can see if the infrastructure, modes of transportation, foods, entertainment and social venues, etc. are to your liking. If your husband finds things to do and you don't like any of them, you will likely spend much time on your own. If you don't have anything you enjoy doing, you will most likely not enjoy your life in Thailand. While on your initial visit, be sure to visit the local open-air markets, use public transportation, eat local food, etc. If you try to isolate yourself and do everything the Western way, it will cost much more. Also, keep an eye on your husband. There are many temptations that can lead a poor sole astray.

[Caursedus]

Well, like they say a change is like a holiday. In Thailand the cost of living is much lower, so your US dollars will give you a much more comfortable life style. I think the main problem will be socially, do you speak Thai, it is very hard to pick up a new language when you get older, and even thought there are large expat communities in some parts of Thailand, not all exspats are from English speaking countries, like Germans and Dutch. My bet it would be best to hang around the area's that have many English Australian's and Americans. Having said that, many of the expat men are married to Thai woman, so there may be a lack of female company of an expat nature, but I'm shore there must be some organizations in Thailand where female expats hang out, maybe a bit more research meeded in this area.

[DownloadMan]

Very Sage advice VC, I have never seen a farang woman that lives in Thailand, altho there must be some as some are married to Thai, but I have seen them coming off planes with their husbands, but they were tourists.
I do know that a farang woman would not be happy where I live or where you will live, but I have not been down in Hua Hin country for 40 years so do not know, maybe a bunch of em down there.
I do remember a bunch of Americans had their wives with them in Saigon and the women had nothing to do all day so they had coffee klatches and started the day on Vodka and ended it with fine Johnny Walker Black or Chevas Regal, and most were full blown alkies and divorced by the time they returned home.

[ropinirole]

Thanks for your post, Betti. Wow, I finally found a farang woman to reply! It was beginning to look bleak, but the advice in the 5 previous posts by men was all well taken. I have traveled all over the world, including having lived for 7 years in Colombia (started out in the Peace Corps in the 60's, then married a Colombian, my first husband). I don't think that the info I am looking for has to do so much with age (I am 60, but young at heart, and very active), as I want to know just how women are treated in general, and especially farang women. I am retired from law enforcement, very independent, and don't know how I would do in a culture where all women are expected to be subservient, but I really don't know how it is there. Can you enlighten me? We plan to visit our friends in Hua Hin for at least 4 weeks next year some time to see for ourselves, but I am trying to get as much research in as possible first.

[kylsq0Ln]

I've not spent a lot of time in Thailand, and only with one particular family, but I've spent some time around Thai people and I would put a different slant on what you say.
[I] don't know how I would do in a culture where all women are expected to be subservient I don't really see Thai culture like that. Women tend to play particular roles and from a western point of view some of it might look somewhat subservient, but my personal experience is that women tend to have a lot of control in various subtle and not-so-subtle ways.

I'm sure some others could expand on this better than I can but let me give you one personal story. Last month in Hong Kong I watched the NZ move Whale Rider with a Thai friend. Whale Rider addresses some issues of gender roles in Maori culture. When I suggested that there might be similar issues in Thai culture she strongly disagreed

Watch the movie Suriyothai http://thailandqa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10443 to see what poweful Thai women have done in the past

[DownloadMan]

OK Nothing to me really, but it just didn't sound correct when you stated that
just because Thailand has been assigned the role of providing cheap labour and cheap goods for the rest of the world. at construction sites and rice paddies, you see women working alongside men doing hard manual labour. And I thought that there should be some clarification of that statement.

[betraaaus]

I think it depends on where in Thailand. I think one of the things that men like about being there, is the diffence in attitudes. I think in BKK, it would not be as important, as in the country. but I am an American male. I might not be a good source of info.

[Drysnyaty]

ok, I know I probably did go on a rant. there are key words and issues that pull the plug (emancipation/feminism, globalisation, teaching Latin as a compulsory subject, degrading non-native teachers of English, "you are betraying your country if you live abroad", "you are torturing those poor 5-year-olds of yours if you teach them phonics and maths", etc.), and then I overreact. "subservient" did it in this case. but I don't want to go back and edit.
sorry to anyone who might have been insulted. my opinion stays but should have been worded differently if at all.

[DownloadMan]

as I want to know just how women are treated in general, and especially farang women. I am retired from law enforcement, very independent, and don't know how I would do in a culture where all women are expected to be subservient, but I really don't know how it is there. Can you enlighten me? Not so much that way anymore, women do just about as they want and do not take so much crap anymore either.
Seems like from what I have seen that the farang males come because they can afford to set in the shade all day and drink beer and bullshit with other farang and not have to worry about winterizing the house, car and surrounding area and spend every day getting in the wood and keeping the water from freezing.
Come and see what it is like and if there are things that you want to do in case your husband gets the idea that he would like to do as most other farang males do and leaves you to your own devices.
But like I have said, I live upcountry and there are very few farang up here where I live..

[Drysnyaty]

ok, as for the "women's stuff crap", let me explain. here we had a lady who called all Asian women "subservient" without knowing anything about their life, just because she suspects they are obviously different from Western / US life models and ideals. if that's the kind of attitude someone carries around, well, then the idea behind is nothing short of crap. the idea as she interprets it, that is. the idea that makes her feel superior, and feel pity for people living in other self-sustaining cultures without an attempt to figure out how that culture works. I would accept someone passing judgement after gaining some insights, though.
I don't think anyone who has been to Thailand for a while at least would call women subservient. there are anomalies, there are paths of exploitation (show me a place without these controversies and then I withdraw my comments I promise), but women in general are not oppressed and are not forced to take a back seat all the time. they just don't find it demeaning to run a household, raise kids, god forbid cook a good meal for their families - besides working really hard.
and I would say crap to anyone any day who says to a full-time mother and wife that she should readjust her priorities and "realise herself" instead. sometimes realising youself comes through trying to realise the full potential of those around you, be it your students, kids, husband. Thais don't lead isolated, solitary lives, they keep connected to their families, support their kids, support their parents, help them any way they can. and there is nothing inferior about that. it's not subservience. it's realising you are not alone, that you are a link in the web.

[Drysnyaty]

does that mean I should repeat something?

I don't like generalising, I just see lots of individual stories unfolding around me. but I know I should be more careful.