[Cerilopasei]

Quote[/b] ]one other thing from the back of my head is that 'Thais don't give tips!

Haha, that's definitely a wrong one!
Steve, I often saw that people's experiences contradict LP, so I learned to take it with a grain of salt. Glad to see things from your perspective. So, could you tell us please, how outspoken government critics dare to be in Thai media? And to what extent do they deliver the international perception of Thailand to their own people?

From your examples it seems that these papers focus on the relatively small-scale, local happenings, and I just wonder whether non-english speaking locals have access to the larger happenings around the world, and are they shown Thailand's true image on the international stage?

On another note, it's an interesting notion: does the geographical location of organizations reflect the nature of the organization accurately? In this age of globalization, that could hardly be the case. If human rights organizations happen to crop up mostly in truly democratic countries, it has more to do with a little thing called 'freedom of speech', which is still a luxury in many corners of the world - too many.

I could give an American address for the Free Burma Coalition, but that would hardly be the proof that the FBC is spreading "American" or "Western" values now, would be? It fights for human rights in Burma. I bet that the imprisoned Aung San Suu Kyi would also be happy to trade her Burmese captivity to an American or European office any time - even if that means that some people would label her ideas about human rights as a "Western construct", when they look at her address. :/

On the same idea, the Dalai Lama must surely be an agent of India, now that he lives there, right? Or could it be possible that perhaps he still has Tibet in his heart and mind, regardless of his current physical location? What does he has to say about human rights? Is that a Western construct? An Indian construct? There are only one kind of human rights, only the voices that speak up for it, are different.

Human rights organizations operate wherever they have freedom to do so, but their message and work are timeless, and stretch beyond the borders that they are bound to.

[euylvaygdq]

LOL I don't know what quoting segments from the original post was expected to accomplish, but here is a short list of the major human rights organizations operating globally:

Human Rights Watch 350 Fifth Avenue, 34th Floor, New York, NY 10118-3299 USA

International Human Rights Funders Group 218 E 18th Street, New York, NY 10003

People For the American Way 2000 M Street, NW, Suite 400, Washington, DC 20036

Unitarian Universalist Service Committee 130 Prospect Street, Cambridge, MA 02139

American Friends Service Committee (AFSC) 1501 Cherry Street, Philadelphia, PA 19102

International Foundation for Election Systems (IFES) 1101 15th Street, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20005

Amnesty International USA 5 Penn Plaza, New York, NY 10001

International Institute for Humane Education P.O. Box 260, Surry, Maine, 04684 United States

Note that these are all based in the United States. I am sure that most others are based in Europe. Thus, westerners both define "human rights" and make the evaluations of a country's "record" of "human rights." Personally, I feel more free in Thailand than I do in the United States.

[euylvaygdq]

"Human Rights" is a Western construct. Europeans and Americans started caring about 'human rights' after they finished looting the globe for themselves and left the locals in charge of the scraps. Each country has evolved with its own culture and perspective on 'human rights.' But, of course, the West sets the standard for the moral imperative.

[Atmotteenrift]

Quote[/b] (visionchaser45 @ Sep. 05 2005,19:34)]Let's take the example of the Western boy who was caught spray painting a wall in Singapore (happened quite some time ago, but still makes a point). His punishment was to be caned in public. The Westeren media erupted with protests that such a punishment violated his "human rights." However, the Singaporeans were more focused on the rights of the owner of the wall that was defaced, and the rights of the society at large, whose right to live in a neat an orderly city had been violated by this boy.

That "boy" was Micheal Fay... if i remember correctly.. well, its not "public" canning.. he got the whipped, but not in the public... i think he had to serve a short jail term too... he got canned in the jail... we don't really have "public" canning.. although, I did get it once for being a naughty boy back in school and was canned in front of the class... haha

After his punishment, he went back to his country and few months later he was in trouble again for beating up his father who protested against the canning earlier...

[euylvaygdq]

Let's take the example of the Western boy who was caught spray painting a wall in Singapore (happened quite some time ago, but still makes a point). His punishment was to be caned in public. The Westeren media erupted with protests that such a punishment violated his "human rights." However, the Singaporeans were more focused on the rights of the owner of the wall that was defaced, and the rights of the society at large, whose right to live in a neat an orderly city had been violated by this boy. In the West, the focus is more on responsibility to the idividual, and, in the East, the focus is more on extended social groups and the society at large. How Thailand rates in relation to some external Western paradigm is of little validity from an Eastern cultural perspective.

It is interesting that location is now no indication of anything substantive, since this was the arguement made to assert a better understanding of Thai culture, simply because one resides in Thailand.

[Inenuedbabnor]

Well...Siamjai, it seems that the government is far more lenient on the anti-govt reporting in the Thai press than they are on the English Language dailies. Can only guess this is because that the rest of the world doesn't understand on what is being said.

Just last week the Editor os the Bangkok Post was sacked supposedly cause of some faulty reporting on the 'cracks' on the new Bkk airport's runways.

For sure, reporters are more daring on their anti-govt stance when writing in Thai. In fact the country's best-selling newspaper 'Thai Raj' has written loads of editorials scoffing at the ruling party and the PM and are known to be anti-PM and anti-thairakthai.

This is in comparision to the editor-in-chief of The Far East Asian Economic Review mag who had his work permit revoked (given back after a massive international outcry) after he translated to the rest of the world about the King criticizing the work of the PM.

Slag of the government as much as you want but speak Thai so the frivolous foreigners haven't a clue.

[euylvaygdq]

Sorry for getting the "public" part wrong. I was citing from memory, which is not always as accurate as I would like. I think the point is still valid though. What is considered normal in many cultures is considered outrageous in others. Trying to superimpose the values of one group on another is how wars get started.

[Cerilopasei]

Thanks Steve, now I understand it better. Before you told us, I would have guessed the other way: that the English-language media was given more leniency, given its substantial exposure to international scrunity... and that local newspapers could be harassed more freely, because they are out of sight of the larger, international public. So, your relevation was surprising. One thing that didn't surprise me though, is that our dear Visionchaser has trouble separating apples from oranges, as usual.

[gastabegree]

Hello all.

Bucky you are absolutely correct, he was arrested after that, and also had been on probation prior to the incident in Singapore. He was a trouble-maker and was taught a lesson by the standing govenment's judicial system. Apparently not taught well enough though.

Steve, I agree 110%, and Seeker it is exactly as you had guessed Steve pointed out. Say what you will against whom you dislike, just keep it in the native language so that the tourists can't decipher it. It brings to mind the discussion many moons back about the the TV news broadcasts in English vs. those in Thai.

Someone politely stated that freedom of speech is not accepted with open arms quite yet in Thailand. Sure there is plenty of freedom, but what you do with your freedom will always have consequences i.e...fines, jail, or the all so famous revoked visa.

The most effective of the consequences though, I think, is the treatment you get from those around you. Thailand was mentioned as being a land with strong social values as opposed to the Western individualism set of ethics. It has great advantages with this 'construct', but there is one major pitfall with it. It forces thousands of opinions to follow the local social leader's opinion, or else the person who happens to be neutral or even agree would be considered an outcast or a traitor.

The caning in Singapore, surely there are many citizens that feel it is an unjust punishment after having been through it or having heard stories of it. But when it was considered an 'international human rights issue' not one would speak up. There is no way that anyone can say in a country that size that 100% of the people agree that the punishment is always justifiable. This is the point that we see the pitfall. Again this is my opinion.

Vision I agree with you again though. Forcing your own values onto another's is how wars have always started and how they will always start. But I also agree with what Seeker said about the HQ location of these groups always being where there is freedom. Globalization too probably is a major factor. Microsoft has a large programming facility (200 employees) in the middle of the farming community I live in. 90% of the current staff relocated to this area to get a raise. Only 10% are local employees. The cleaning crew consists of 15 people, they are local. So how many local coders are there? Last I heard there were 7. I am sure the freedom and available technology play the largest role though, not that the voices are actually Westernized entities.

[Cerilopasei]

Stacker!!! You're back!!! What a pleasant surprise! I already gave up on the thought that I'll ever see you again. Many things to talk about, but this is not the place... PM is better. For now, welcome back! I hope everything's going well over there.

So, back to the original topic, what do you think about the writer's opinion? Do you think it's possible that the Thai government plans a massive, all-out sale of everything Thai, as the writer stated? If so, what possible consequences could it have on the current public perception of Thailand's "political and economic crisis"?

Furthermore, what do you think that the UN Human Rights Commission's statement? Is it rightfully justified to call for the cross-examination of Thailand's current human rights record?

Some -certainly Thaksin and his cronies- would say that it's an intrusion; others would cry "imposing Western values on the East", and that Thailand has its own set of human rights values, but such assumption implies that the government's indiscriminate killing and detainment of southerners is the indicative of Thailand's human rights.

It's clearly not so, as we've seen many Thais rightfully enraged about the government's heavy-handed tactics - even HM the King called for restraint in his birthday speech, if you remember. The worries of a community of nations, and His Majesty's concerns point at the same direction, therefore one should be careful before labeling it as a "Western construct". Such a suggestion is playing with lese majeste!

[Inenuedbabnor]

All right siamjai, let's go back and i'll put a bit of me own thought into the article.

It was all right, had a few decent points but i also felt that it lacked.

I certainly dont agree with what the author had to say by this "food, handicrafts and history-rich destinations are China's best assets". Get out of it! China's best assets are it's 1.3billion cheap labour willing to work a 15 hour day. Brilliant asset! Has and will continue to give the world super cheap TVs, mobiles, DVDs furniture etc... Wait for the next 2-3 years when the Chinese are gonna plunge into the automobile markets!

In 'real terms' the Chinese economy is already worth 75% of America's and because of the rise of this new Superpower the western world including the leaders of virtually every western country has suddenly completely forgotten about China's Human Rights record. It's a known fact - if China invades Tiawan tomorrow you think the Americans are gonna help fight back. Dream On! Wal-mart is now the world's biggest company? How come? Cheap China goodies and that's it.

It's a another sad fact that in contrary to what the articles says The US, Europe etc... dont really give a darned about any Human Rights Abuses in Thailand. They may complain a bit but they dont want to upset any trade matters too. As for Burma, well they just don't have any attractive business agendas... so just put on whatever kinda embargos ya like.

The whole world and especially the West have been selling junk superficial ways to draw attention to their heritage for donkey's years. Look at the French for example they've been knocking of lotsa cultural mish-mash for decades and no one complains about their 20million+ tourists a year.

Everyone knows that PM Thaksin is a brilliant businessman. On OTOP, i'll side with Thaksin more than the author of this article. Of course there a quite a few things that i like and dislike about his policies but in this situation it has to be said that his OTOP idea has taken Thai Heritage to the world and may have been his best idea since coming into power.

Not too much different from say thai-blogs.com where we try to promote all the things about Thailand that was just completely un-known til not that long ago. Just a decade ago Thailand was known predominently for one thing and that was its ladies of the night. Now there are stacks of foreigners just intrigued by Thai Boxing, Thai Music, Thai Beaches etc..

Thaksin may sound superficial but at least he's trying to spread the decent cultural heritage of Thailand to the world. Sure, he's cocked-up on a few things but i'll leave them be for now.

PS: I dont agree with this quote too "Thailand's economy is in deep crisis". Rather pessimistic to say the least. Perhaps the author has a bicycle and hasnt realised that the world's oil prices have had a massive impact everywhere.

The forecast for Thailand's GDP growth for the fourth quarter has been cut slightly but geez, where in the world hasn't?

[Inenuedbabnor]

Just going back to what Siamjai said.

I certainly don't agree with a lot of what the Lonely Planet states and in fact some of the stuff they write is actually false information. ie; they say that you stand up for the national anthem at the cinema (wrong; it's the king's anthem) and one other thing from the back of my head is that 'Thais don't give tips!

Then i wouldn't agree entirely that intellectual Thais would choose English language newspapers over Thai publications. It really depends on what you like to read about. There are times when i get a better read from a Thai paper than the English language. What im saying is that...say, the Bangkok Post writes up lots of stories on say elections in Costa Rica or riots in Uganda or sports news on Chiang Mai Cricket Sixes. ie. a lot of stuff that doesn't interest me.

Then, the Thai Raj paper say has stories mostly about Thailand that do interest me but gets very little write up in the Bangkok Post.

Just last week, i'll give you two examples, when i chose the Thai Raj instead of the BKK Post. One was the story about Wanchalerm Yoobumrung getting himself into a pub fight again when in fact he is banned from 'going out' at night. Then, one story that has been going on for years and that is of Hangthong Thammawattana and his mysterious death. Interesting stuff.

Beats having to read about strikes in Finland.

[Hrennilasi]

Quote[/b] ]"Human Rights" is a Western construct. Europeans and Americans started caring about 'human rights' after they finished looting the globe for themselves and left the locals in charge of the scraps. Each country has evolved with its own culture and perspective on 'human rights.' But, of course, the West sets the standard for the moral imperative.

Yes! Spoken like a true blue state resident! We here in America are pretty good at minding everyone elses business and not minding our own! We're a first world country with a third world government. Re. New Orleans, War on Terror, etc...

It seems to me that more and more politicians and governments are lackys for the business elites. Dress it up and put some kind of attractive spin on it and sell, sell, sell. As long as we're making the money that's all that matters.

[gastabegree]

Thank you for the kind words SiamJai, sorry for mistyping your name. I guess I missed the place just too much. Back to the discussion:

I have to agree with this Steve. Thaksin is an outstanding businessman, and he has done wonders for foreign trade policies and maybe even tourism. Either way Thailand is much better off now than it was 10 years back. The economy has been on one #### of a rebound for the last straight 4-6 years. They say that this next year will be another record breaking year. There is even fear that the cost of living will be rising. Though it sounds bad, that actually (on the larger level) is very good. So yes all is going well. But....

Taking these beaches, bamboo & teak craftmanship, food dishes, art, clothing, architecture, music and general way of life and exporting these 'items' would do nothing but better the country. IF IT is done properly. Thaksin is very proud to be Thai, I seriously doubt he would do anything to risk the humiliation and shame of bringing anything harmful upon the country as a whole. Especially considering this is not going to bring him any personal gain. Thaksin is all about personal gain, and this doesn't seem to have anything to do with it.

I too am quite confident that he would find the proper channels and people to market anything and even everything with minimal negative impact on Thailand.

[Cerilopasei]

Quote[/b] ]how different is the views of the vernacular press (thai) and the English press in Thailand to the government activities?

Joe Cummings said in Lonely Planet that Thais who can read English prefer the English papers over Thai ones, as they consider them to be more trustworthy. However, that's a fairly small segment of the population.

From a personal POV, when I regularly see the headlines of major Thai newspapers being covered by grisly pictures of accidents and homicides, it's hard to take them any more seriously than I'd take US and UK tabloids. But it could be just face value, as I don't read Thai news, really... not yet, anyway.

I agree with the author; it's disenheartening to see every aspect of Thai culture being labelled, valued and sold for the international market indiscriminately and without regard to consequences.

I always disliked the way TAT and its cohorts are trying to color Thailand in an unrealistic shade of pink. Not so much out of concern for tourists being cheated when they see how it really is -they rarely do- but because such practice also carries the political consequence of hiding Thailand's problems on the international stage.

Mike and I had a discussion about a similar practice in the Lao PDR, which successfully hides its human rights abuses, while neighboring Burma with similar actions is the international pariah, as far as human rights in the region are concered. Just look at the recent ASEAN fiasko.

The Thai government may intend to do the same thing, while creating global brands out of Thai culture. Two birds with one stone...

[viagraman]

American companies such as Pizza Hut and The Pizza Company do export the food and its enviroment of getting food quickly.

I've wondered that too Trangram. It is hard to see a stance that Thai papers take. I think it seems to depend on the situation and how brave the author is.

[TXmjLW9b]

Living with Thainess? Excuse me?
Kavi Chongkittavorn
The Nation (Opinion)
Published on August 29, 2005

It is amazing that the Thai government has the audacity to embark on a campaign called “Living with Thainess”, or “Vithi Thai Su Lok”, at this time when anything related to Thailand on the international stage seems to be negative because of the government’s human-rights violations and media muzzling.

Vithi thai su lok means bringing Thai way of life to the world – and indicates a very narcissistic way of looking at things.

The Commerce Ministry last week briefed Thai ambassadors and consular heads stationed overseas about the government’s ongoing efforts to promote the country’s heritage and traditions as cultural products. The ministry asked them all to become the country’s salesmen. To compete in the world today, the government believes that Thailand needs to create new cultural products that can compete with those of other countries. On the global level, the US has Hollywood culture, blue jeans, music, pizza and hamburgers, while Japan has manga cartoons and its own food and music as its cultural products. South Korea, which has seen an upsurge in its cultural influence in films and martial arts, is enjoying the fruits of their commercial success. In China, food, handicrafts and history-rich holiday destinations are the country’s best assets. The argument goes that Thailand needs to follow the same path and create cultural icons on the global stage. The government has chosen Otop products, Thai cuisine and fruit, tourism, movies and boxing, among other things, as our selling points. It is hard to argue against any effort that promotes Thai culture and in the process makes money. But it is pretty scary if the campaign means to be something more than that.

Who wants to “live with Thainess” anywhere, really? In the viewpoints of neighbouring Laos, Burma and Cambodia, such a pronouncement would seem to imply a Thai-centred attitude and a sense of superiority. In the age of globalisation, the world has become more cosmopolitan and interconnected anyway, and living with Thainess seems to be a rather superficial way of drawing attention to Thailand’s cultural heritage. It’s sad how the government is promoting Thai culture in such a money-focused way. Everything that can translate Thai culture into cash is a now a novelty. Label Thai products, give them add-on value and export them. Foreigners will eat them up, they say.

To be fair, the campaign to sell Thailand’s culture, products and local traditions to foreigners is not new. It has been going for years, but previously on a small scale, with good taste and with a great deal of cultural sensitivity.

The “Amazing Thailand” campaign of the 1990s was exceptional. It so successfully boosted Thailand’s image in positive ways, and was such a boon to the tourist industry, that it increased the country’s confidence and led to new campaigns promoting Thai cuisine, and Thailand as an adventure-sport destination.

Now the scale and marketing of Thainess to the world by the government is humongous. Really, it is a bit out of proportion. The aim is to commercialise every aspect of Thai culture. That is the way to increase foreign-exchange earnings and create jobs. The long-term outcomes of this approach have yet to be discerned. Obviously, the government wants to maximise the country’s assets in every possible way without dwelling on the negative consequences.

The government is using the ruling Thai Rak Thai party’s marketing strategies, gimmicks and expertise to create a brand for Thailand in just about everything. In months and years to come, the government will zero in on making Thailand’s sea, sun and sand (minus ###) and Otop products globally known brand names. Obviously, there are other new things that the government will dig up along the way. Well, it is part of the overall strategies. Thailand has a huge potential for developing more sea resorts, adventure-sport sites and diving spots, which can turn the country into a “Paradise on Earth”. That is the government’s aim.

Problem is, Thailand is not a paradise or as exotic as the government claims. The country is in a deep crisis both in the political and economic areas. Pretending everything is fine and dandy is not a good way to introduce Thailand.

Despite the great damage done to the country’s pride and image, as inflicted and repeatedly exacerbated by the government and its leaders, Thailand still enjoys a reservoir of goodwill around the world. This has been due to our forefathers and leaders who have saved up lots of goodwill capital overseas and within the UN system. But this goodwill is receding fast.

For instance, at the recent cross-examination of the Thai human-rights record at the UN’s Geneva offices, international human-rights experts recalled the good old days and better records Thailand enjoyed. They expressed regret that the country has been subjected to the UN Human Rights Commission for further enquiries and calls for clarification. The chilling effect of such human-rights violations is marring Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra’s visit to the UN and the US.

Thailand’s positive image has been tarnished. If the human-rights violations and media muzzling, and the proliferation of leadership arrogance that has become Thaksin’s stigma, are allowed to continue, then the country’s international reputation will suffer a serious blow. And Thainess will be something disdained by the world.

[DOWNLOADnowADOBEphotoSHOP]

Quote[/b] ]You are missing the point paul_au.

I'm not missing the point at all.
Academics all ways are the ones that point out human rites abuses, The fact is academic only represent a small percentage of the population, and the average Joe Blow in the street are not as passionate about the problems. The other point I made my reference from international opinion, not for the opinion of the Thai people, which I can understand, the Thai people would be more involved in there own politics, but what I'm just saying is most people internationally don't care less about the internal politics of other peoples countries, if it has no detrimental international effects. Another point is do these criminals care less about your human rites when they do there crimes, so if the government is tough so what, that is what the international prospective is. That is not my personal view, I think the government is too tough in some areas of it's law enforcement, but that is just my opinion, I also see the reason why the government is tough, and I think there supporting the rites of the innocent people to live in peace and safety because at the moment the average person is not free to walk the street in safety because of the crime, so why are the innocent people suffering (having to imprison them selves in there house as the street is not safe), because the government is not tough enough on crime, that is the AlterNet view to my opinion, so there are two sides to the story

[DOWNLOADnowADOBEphotoSHOP]

Quote[/b] ]Thailand’s positive image has been tarnished. If the human-rights violations and media muzzling, and the proliferation of leadership arrogance that has become Thaksin’s stigma, are allowed to continue, then the country’s international reputation will suffer a serious blow.

I have news for you, most people here about the human rights abuses in Thailand, but the average international Joe and Jan in the street, do not care less, as it does not effect there life style. I here bad international publicity talk about Australia by the Australian media, but when I travel overseas, people have herd the bad publicity, but most people do not care less, and in fact in most cases have supported, what the media is saying is bad. So the Thai media may publicize international feeling as being negative, but for the negativity, there are just as many people who think being tough is a positive thing, All I can say every one is entitled to there own opinion, but what people say is international opinion is in fact very subjective. Many people like my self may consider Thailand to be to heavy handed, but people like my self also understand why the government is doing it, so for that reason I am not willing to criticize the way the Thai government is handling things when there are criminals in the world that would do any thing if you let them get away with it.

[Phywhewashect]

I am curious - how different is the views of the vernacular press (thai) and the English press in Thailand to the government activities? Is the latter seen as more aggresive? Or are both similar?