[gettoblaster]

This week one of the prime channels in India (not a global channel, not an affiliate but absolutely local.. which makes this even more special.) has carried a 40 min program on Thailand Ladyboys. When I first began seeing it alongwith friends, I was squeamish - "here is another projection of Thailand which I will have to argue about with everyone, to avoid a stereotype image of Thailand". Specially, because they began with the camera panning through all the night bars and the 'creative' titles they carry!

But once we were 10 minutes into the program I was very impressed. Not only the TV channel was carrying out a very sensitive reporting but also the people interviewed - Katoeys, their relatives, human right groups, general public and other support association - responded in a very sensible manner. It turned out a program into human nature and its depths.

In the report, they analysed how Thailand is one of the only few (or the only one) countries in the world that has such a tolerant and understanding persepctive of this segment of society. Not even the Modern West. However, of course, they delved further that still its not total freedom.

* This included the restrictions faced by ladyboys in society when looking for jobs.

* The confusion in sexual identity, because the government will not consider the ladyboy as a female - 'since 'she' was born a man... and so within, she still remains the same'

* And still there are parts of the society which do not accept it.

The program then ended with a graphic description of the surgeries some of them go through. That was a little tough section of the program!!

However, what impressed me most was the grace and confidence with which the ladyboys responded to the questions. Like one, who performs as a dancer mentioned:

" I do not drink, do not smoke. I do not go around making others unhappy. Please, you (people) have no reason to worry about me!"

Another one spoke some nice stuff, which I liked, because of the references:

" When I was a kid, I used to watch Indian movies and I was always moved by Bharat Natyam. So, be sure I was rather influenced from them!!"

And then there was a nice long interview with a person who is a song (or was it dance?) teacher and her students and parents. The pictures she showed of her dressed as a girl was nothin short of stunning! Very classical Thai style... shot in black & white.

And then there was an interview of an older person who teaches in a school ( I think, thats what it was) and the challenges and the love she faces from students, parents etc...

Incidentally, Indian ladybodys are called by almost a similar name - Kothis. But they live absolutely in the fringes and as far as I know they get opportunity for no meaningful jobs. ( But for sure, India is a land of contrasts. And we have had two Members of Parliament elected - both, Kothis! That was people's choice as a response to their frustration with normal politicians and then they got used to it.) Of course, historically, India has a better story. the Hindu religion talks of 'ardhnari/Ardhnareshvara' and the lord Shiva is depicted as man & woman - uniting both sexes into one body. And is part of many temples and reverred. And many other stories...

So, finally, a program which I thought would stereotype Thailand, instead turned out relating very well with the kind nature of the country and the balanced & independent mind-set of Thai people.

[gettoblaster]

Hi Bucky, almost all of what you say, is what was said in the program too. Still they think that Thailand relatively offers them more space. I can compare with my country and its a 1000 times better. Can't say for the rest of the world. But so was how the person commenting think.

[Atmotteenrift]

Kratoey aka ladyboy... gotta love them! Bunch of jovial people.. just be careful of those lurking at sukhumvit road... some of them have a third hand....

[Atmotteenrift]

Quote[/b] (trangam @ Aug. 21 2005,22:37)]In the report, they analysed how Thailand is one of the only few (or the only one) countries in the world that has such a tolerant and understanding persepctive of this segment of society. Not even the Modern West. However, of course, they delved further that still its not total freedom.

Seriously, i'm not so sure about your statement...

I do have lots of personal encounters with kratoeys in Thailand... i'll say alot of them live a very sad life....

yes, alot of them still can hold decent jobs in Thailand... waitress, admin staffs, hotel staff, entertainments, etc... but just like any other countries, they also get discrimations from peers...

Movies like to sterotype them as funny people, comedians, jokers, etc...

Alot of them have to leave their family because their parents cannot accept their identity change....

Alot of them because they wanna do the expensive ### change operations, they have to turn to prostituitions...

Alot of them live a sad single life untill old....

[Cerilopasei]

Great topic Trangam; so hard to come by one of these on the forums these days! But when I saw your name as the topic starter, I knew it will be of good quality, and I wasn't disappointed.

From your description, it looks like an interesting program that I wish I could have seen. Especially because it's so rare to come by a fair portrayal of this segment of Thai society, like you said.

The above-mentioned three problems that make life difficult for ladyboys in Thailand are not unique to them, I think. If it's difficult for them to find a job, just think how difficult for Farang to find a job in Thailand! For the former, the discrimination is a result of what gender one happened to be born into; for the latter, it is based on shallow excuses such as the place one happened to be born at. So, I could definitely emphasize with that problem.

Again, the second and third problems you mentioned, that others refuse to accept the new, self-declared identity of the katoeys is very similar to the case of Farang for whom the self-declared Thai identity is denied by many. Luckily for both group, the circle of close friends and relatives readily accept them for what they really are inside, and that's what really counts.

I think that the underlying basis for alienation of katoeys is that most people are uncomfortable with the dynamic nature of the human body and self-perception, including gender identity.

Societies with the fundamental principle that we were created and this creation should not be tampered with, will take much more time to accept that indeed, we can change any aspect of our being even things that are now considered 'taboo'.

As a passionate scientist, I was very comfortable with the idea that there is no 'constant' aspect of life - everything can be changed, manipulated even before birth. I hope that with time, this attitude will gain a wider acceptance, not only for the sake of katoeys, but also for revolutionary ideas such as genetically modified organisms and stem-cell research. The present-day caveman-like attitude for these three notions is alarming.

Trangam, I know all about the Christian attitude towards creation, but I wonder how is it in Hinduism? You mentioned the positive ways in which Hindu teachings influence the notion towards Kothis, but could there be anything there responsible for the discrimination they face? Or is entirely due to a social phenomenon such as the caste system? (Oh, and... what is 'Ardhnareshvara'? )

Incidentally, I just learned from your post that Shiva is depicted both as a man and as a woman. I saw this earlier, but just thought to be a misunderstanding.

[gettoblaster]

Hi SiamJai, thanks for the comments!

I guess when one is discriminated against or 'reduced', the suffering one goes through is similar. Because the net result is the same for all - estrangement, wonder about whether you were meant for the said word, sapped energy, unable to walk through the street and say these are my fellow-beings, anger! I guess its the same feeling that must have been experienced by africans in US once, people colonised for the first time, the Katoeys at times, and if what you say is the case, the farang in an society which does not open up!

I think I may understand what you say. I will take a simplistic theory... and pardon me for that. While I think it has been the Western world's misdeed trying to own the world. It is Asia's misdeed to keep the Westerner out of their core world. By which the Westerner is more and more mesmerised and crazy about this mystery and works doubly hard to solve it. And the Asian withdraws more and more!!! (And then we have the missionaries.) LOL!

Frankly, its the evolution of our worlds. Its probably not a fault of any kind - Having evolved over ages and now coming together. I think with time we will learn to make each other more and more comfortable as time passes.

On this account, again, I think Thailand is relatively very free and open to foreigners. In my little travel across Asia, I can promise you that in the rest of Asia there is a strong 'colonial hangover'. In India, while one part of everyone is to shower affection to a farang, the other part is so distrusting!! Compared to this, Thailand people, have very little paranoia of farangs and if you talk they are listening, I feel. And I often feel this is because Thailand managed to remain free through the time others got colonised...?

Now, as regards Hinduism, if one goes through the stories, we see place for all kinds of people & all kind of circumstances. You hear of Lord Shiva turning into a beautiful women for some mission. When Lord Vishnu saw him in that guise he got mesmerised and out of their union was born a child which we call now Lord Ayappa - highly reverred in South India. Well, deep down I am not about to confirm if I can proof anything - but Hinduism has been highly imaginative. And it has never damned anyone kind of being.

However, The caste system, is a real problem today. Of course, in the early days it was part of a social system... which was accepted and maintained and stable - and I think was pretty much like most ancient kingdoms around the world?. Typically, children mostly adopt the professions of their parents.

Some would tell that true hinduism is not about genetic caste system. Your caste is about what role you play. If you are learned person, you are a brahmin, wherever you come from. But this got corrupted over time. I am not sure if this is rationalisation or if it is true. Of course, the news we often come across today about discrimination in parts of the country, as a result of caste system, is totally vulgar and unnaceptable in the modern world.

In my understanding the Kothis, as a community, seem never to have any top standings in History... but they were reverred in a manner. Married couple (and when couples had new born babies) would always take their blessings from the Kothis/Hijras before anything else. So, in a way they had some stature.

Even today, some people carry out this practise. But on the whole the society has no time for them or energy to think for them. And that is the sad part. And they live a very miserable life as far as I can say.

I am sorry, this has become a long write up. One more thing though.

You know India is a big country and in the past before the Moghuls came and then the British, there were various kingdoms. While there was a common binding between the cultures by religion and culture, there were also a rich diversity. While a lot of diversity exists even today, many an old practises and beliefs may have gone underground.

Now, in my view, you can see the diversity that India had by going around Asia and seeing the influences. You see the different versions which no longer stand out in India itself. One very obvious part is the popularity of Buddhism once upon a time, which now is little in India but so popular all around the country. In fact, Buddhism caught like wildfire in India and this caused immense anxiety among the Hindu spiritual leaders. And they then got aggresive with their own reformist movement and managed to restore the popularity of Hinduism. Today, there is one sect of Hinduism which believes that Lord Buddha was the 9th incarnation of Lord Vishnu! Some beleive this is appropriating.

Whatever, the fact is that those were novel ways to deal with life and imaginative!!