[heennaRaf]

[quote=Frightend_Farang,July 13 2004,14:55]

Quote[/b] ]Alcohol is one of the worst drugs, possibly because it's legal and advertised....cigarette advertising has been baned from televison for decades but that hasn't stoped anyone from smoking.

I would have to agree.... This is one of the biggest arguments that advocates for the legalization of marajuana use. But I do see the point of it more than any of their others. How many fathers smoke too much marajuana and then beat their wife and kids? How many people try to start fights after they smoke marajuana? But it is quite the opposite with alcahol I mean the fact that marajuana makes someone feel good should not be the major reason for banning something. A drug of choice should be left to an individual.

Pick your own poison right? I mean we all know that drugs are bad for the body, yet people consume nicotine, alcohol, caffeine many time some of them are consumed on a daily basis. Leave the choice of which drugs to use up to the individuals I say.

[jeepgrandch]

Seeker, you'd be AMAZED how quickly the bickering would end if you didn't pepper your comments with your habitual pseudopersonal, albeit mean-spirited, putdowns like wife-fishing and wishy-washies, and your character attacks (e.g., calling Del a freak). These are hardly the hallmarks of a responsible debater. Purge these weapons out of your repertoire and you will soon see that we can actually hold a much more civilized debate. The choice is really yours.

Okay, back to the topic. I am honestly confused about the steroid issue here. Tjau Min stated at the origin of this thread that steroids were mostly legal in Thailand. Given that Dennis James was charged with holding E without authorization, it wasn't actually the steroids then that got him into trouble, but only the E, right?

So what types of steroids are illegal in Thailand, and why? Anyone know? Which circles us back to the question, why not legalize them?

[shieclulaweew]

Quote[/b] ]you do bring a whole LOT of this onto yourself

I don't think so, Redbird. Aside from this topic, I always took great care of not personalizing any potentially offensive statements. I also acknowledge the possibility for alternatives - you can hardly call that "stereotyping". Furthermore, I indicate whether what I say is fact (with sources included) or merely speculation.

All the above are hallmarks of a responsible debater. Stacker, Makiyo and others are also like this, and a discussion with such people is always pleasant. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same thing about the three of you.

You see, when you personally address a negative post, like I did here with Delawang for the example's sake, and you guys do with me all the time, then you don't leave the recipient with much choices. One can either ignore it, or respond accordingly. I ignored too many now, but frankly, I am getting sick of the constant personal bickering. Even when I asked you -politely- to please stop it, you just keep coming back with them. Tells more about you than about me...

So I ask again, for the last time: please stop the personal attacks. Opinions and disagreements can be expressed in a general, nonpersonal way. That way, it will be up to each reader whether to get offended or not.

[pavelChe]

There is too much baiting and bashing on this topic. If you want to continue with talking about steriods I suggest you start a new thread. However, if someone starts a new thread or decides to make a reply on another thread and purposly baits a member of this forum they will receive an official warning from us.

[shieclulaweew]

So, let's get back to the original topic. Sorry for the little intermezzo, Tjau Min.

I assume you meant the topic that you orignally posted, that is, steroid-trade in Thailand, not the pros and cons of legalizing drugs. With that in mind...

Quote[/b] ]There's also a famous American bodybuilder, Dennis James, who has a house in Thailand and stays there a couple of months each year.

Who, incidentally, got arrested this year for allegedly trafficking steroids to other countries from Thailand.

Dennis James arrested in Thailand
http://musclememory.com/blog/archives/000004.html


On 26th February at 9.00am, Dr. Mahaisak (chief of police), and Mr Yakvarachai (drugs officer) along with a DEA officer, arrested Mr Dennis James, the American champion body builder.

They found hundreds of vials of an anabolic steroid along with 19 E tablets in a parcel sent from Germany to Mr Dennis James at Universe Gym. Mr James admitted that everything in the parcel belonged to him and that he intended to sell the steroids to bodybuilding friends in Thailand, and the ecstasy tablets to tourists visiting Thailand. Police officers were called upon to search his house. Mr James's house was full of bodybuilding trophies. Officers searched Mr James's computer and found evidence showing that he used it to give and receive orders from all around the world. Mr James is charged with holding Ecstasy tablets without authorisation. The maximum penalty for this crime in Thailand is death. (emphasis mine).

Thai officers and DEA officers have been watching Dennis James for a long time. He has a business visa to be in Thailand to operate the Universe Gym but officials believe that this was a cover for his main activity - a major agent to import and export steroids which are banned in the United States. It is believed that he receives parcels from the Netherlands via Germany and he then distributes them to other countries, including America. Evidence was found showing that Mr James sells ecstasy tablets via the internet internationally. Police also found parcels in his home ready to be sent to an American address."

Quote[/b] ]Do Thai people have an opinion on this? If so, do they think it's wrong or do they see it as a source of income?

From the above newspiece it seems that Thais don't take it kindly to international drug traders who try to abuse the lax Thai laws about steroids. Rightly so!

[EjPWyPm4]

Quote[/b] (Redbird_Lefty @ July 25 2004,00:29)]Okay, back to the topic. I am honestly confused about the steroid issue here. Tjau Min stated at the origin of this thread that steroids were mostly legal in Thailand. Given that Dennis James was charged with holding E without authorization, it wasn't actually the steroids then that got him into trouble, but only the E, right?

So what types of steroids are illegal in Thailand, and why? Anyone know? Which circles us back to the question, why not legalize them?

Indeed, the possession and even worse, the selling of E, got him into big trouble. The steroids were only a side issue, although dealing roids also isn't legal in Thailand.

Furthermore, all types of steroids are legal in Thailand, simply because (anabolic) steroids are medicines, and in Thailand medicines can be purchased in almost every pharmacy without a prescription. In fact, the prescription is what it's all about. Usually it's necessary to get a prescription for certain medicines (including steroids), but in Thailand and some other countries including Turkey and Egypt this just isn't the case.

Therefore, it's not about banning steroids, but about making them prescription medicines. Medicines shouldn't be banned!

[shieclulaweew]

Long time no see Mike... welcome back! How is life treating you nowadays?

Quote[/b] ]if you become an addict then it's no longer just yourself you're going to influence.

Exactly! Drug addicition is not an individual's problem; it is society's problem, for the reasons you mentioned above, with the addition of AIDS in the case of intravenous drug users. I also wonder just what exactly the proponents of drug-legalization in the name of individual freedom have in mind for the victims.

Quote[/b] ]If I can only stop one child taking drugs or help a parent to understand their child on drugs...

This is from a person who has been there, done that. Gor said this, on the Thaidrugaddict website that Mike mentioned before. I advise those who haven't done yet so, to read his story of drug addiction and the long, difficult road of recovery. Very touching and educational.

His message is a far cry from "let's have free, legal drugs on the street; let the individual make the decision." It just doesn't work that way. It doesn't work with alcohol, as Frightened Farang noted. Why should we assume that it would work in the case of stronger drugs like heroine, cocain, PCP, ya-ba, etc.?

The solution that works is Thaksin's "war on drugs" approach. Look how much the drug-scene has changed! Drugs are not as easily available anymore, the trading moved underground. Now, I hope that the pursuing forces will follow them there as well, until the drug problem is completely eradicated, and Ya-ba&Co. go the way of the smallpox virus.



PS: I hope no one will come up again with the idiotic suggestion that I created another user to agree with. "Mike" is a long-timer here. But you never know... third time is the charm. Some may actually believe that I posted some additional 700+ messages in my free time.

[Avgustslim]

Quote[/b] ]I would hate to have billboards, magazine advertisements, etc., to extoll the virtues of drugs and foster peer pressure to use them, just because they are legal.

"Just do it, everyone else is"

Yes I would disagree with this too. It's bad enough that advertising pratically brainwashes us into buy things we don't need, advertising acid, cocaine, exasty, marijuanan, heroin, etc, etc would be a disaster.

In ancient times people believed that no thoughts were their own. If you fell in love, it was the goddess aphrodiety telling you to be in love. If you were at war it was jupiter telling you to go to war. Now adays we see a commercial for McDonalds and run out to buy, and this is called "free-will."

Back to the topic of drugs and advertising: Alcohol is a drug, I'm sure we'll all agree. Alcohol is one of the worst drugs, possibly because it's legal and advertised. Out of all the drug related deaths in america, you will find that alcohol is the ranking cause. Thus I think that advertising for alcoholic beverages should be prohibited. Maybe I'm wrong, cigarette advertising has been baned from televison for decades but that hasn't stoped anyone from smoking.

[heennaRaf]

Not a chance, I mean to say Beckham is one of the best is the same as saying N'Sync is one of the best pop bands yet, nor do I think O'neal is all that good. I am just pointing out the obvious leaders where I am from, though they are not the best, they rank at the top in the eyes of the public (teenagers anyway).

I did jump the gun on the sports you were speaking of, my mistake. Yes I can easily see dozens of members, having used in the past, currently I don't think many do, simply due to the public humilation involved in getting caught. But I am sure that many get by, and slide right through the system.

[heennaRaf]

People still commit crimes to gain access to the legal drugs alcohol and nicotine

I do agree as said that the drug use would go down if they were legalized, again then the supplier would be the questionable one, and who is held responisble should this 'addict' hurt your daughter or my wife ?? With the way it is currently setup, The addict, the dealer, the distributer and even the manufacturer can be held accountable.

Redbird_lefty I agree 100% with your last sentence. But like I said look at what people do with the drugs that are legal. I just think that it is not possible to legalize something and not promote it at the same time. The only thing I can think of that such actions are successful with religious teachings or moral values, they are legal yet nobody promotes them hehe

[paydayloanfasters]

Quote[/b] ]What's with the bashing, Seeker? Nowhere here did I see anything that should provoke you into nastily attacking someone

Well, then maybe his derisory post on the previous page escaped your attention... or rather just chose not to notice it.

One would think that after our Delawang was proved to be a paranoid freak in our recent ill-fated discussion (which I refuse to revive), he would stay low-profile to avoid further embarrassment. No, I didn't expect an apology, but merely to drop the mocking, sarcastic taunts that he is so fond of using with me. Apparently, even that was too much to expect. Hence the "Old geezers don't learn new tricks" and the other stuff.

He just doesn't know when to stop, apparently. How many embarrassing mistakes has he yet to make, how many times do the head admins have to come in to make him stop? I don't know. One thing I know is that if he doesn't quit his obsession pretty soon, this story may have a bitter ending.

[realnilkless]

So are there two tier pricing for the drugs you sell?

[Patamuta]

It is not "wife fishing" (a fishing wife), but "wife-fishing" ... I would like to explain it to you, but I know from the ignorance you demonstrated previously that you just could not understand.

I guess the old saying is true: "Old geezers don't learn new tricks" Such people gain their "expertise" by staring at the bottom of their beer bottles. So pathetic...

One can only speculate why a person like that stands for the legalization of drugs. After all, legalizing drugs other than alcohol would open more venues of legal "fun" besides just soaking oneself in booze.

Quote[/b] ]I just think that it is not possible to legalize something and not promote it at the same time.

Right on, Stacker! The sad reality is, some do everything if there is a possiblity of profiting from it, regardless of what harm they do to society. For that reason, governments should exercise not less, but more control over drugs, IMO.

[jeepgrandch]

Let's face it Seeker, you do bring a whole LOT of this onto yourself with your guerilla-style stereotyping ("wife-fishing", "wishy-washies", etc.) and character assassinations (e.g., by basically claiming that people who want to decriminalize drugs are idiots). Can you see how these debate tactics can upset, and even inflame, others in a discussion? The fact that you won't take any responsibility for these pre-meditated tactics is troubling. I hope the admins here recognize this as well.

As for the idea of decriminalizing drugs/steroids, I am in complete agreement with Delawang. Again, the one caveat is that there be NO advertising at all for these drugs (other than standard pharmaceuticals like aspirin, etc.). This means no ads for alcohol and tobacco. To me, corporations are only fictitious "persons" and so should not be afforded with equal free speech rights like us natural persons.

I believe that if we made illegal drugs legal tomorrow, that not a whole lot of people would decide that they want to then take heroin, cocaine, etc. (okay, maybe pot). Certainly not all drugs were created equal so there would have to be varying degrees of regulation for the various drugs. I cannot imagine a whole lot of regulation of steroids whereas PCP and E might be another matter. I think American society, as an example, would end most of this debate simply by decriminalizing pot.

I assert that far more was done creating addicts by glamorizing tobacco and alcohol than would now be encouraged by simply decriminalizing the illegal drugs like heroin and cocaine. So, if you outlawed advertising for the legal drugs and only decriminalized the illegal ones, I intuitively assert, admittedly with no hard evidence in front of me, that we would see an overall decrease in users and addictions. Advertising and illegality both create lure; decriminalization won't eradicate it but should minimize it.

As for the addicted, I will say it again, I would rather they have the chance to get clean needles (in the case of heroin), than have those addicts clobber me with a pipe to get their fix money. What is cheaper for society, incarcerating addicts (some with HIV/AIDS from infected needles) or handing out clean needles at rehab centers? I choose the latter.

Again, thinking laisse faire-like on first principles, if I want to smoke pot in my basement, why shouldn't I? If I want to do anything in my home, without hurting anybody but myself perhaps, what's a strong compelling reason why I shouldn't?