[xIuvyAuT]

Originally posted by mingshi
Achilles, I think I'll be the second one to go against kata...


Would someone give any comments to the above confusion because I think if I ever tell all these to senior Sensei... They'll fail every grading of mine... Now I'm pretty fed up with the concepts of Kata, especially when I occationally practice the more realistic sword-using Koryu Kenjujsu, which uses various kamae and cuts on places beside the 4 kendo targets.

Well, You do point out something baout it. But, once you came to udnerstand Kata (even the first 7 with Daito), these are some of the basic foundamental of kendo wasa. Like KhawMengLee point out before. each kata highlight certain portion of different waza. and these can also be used in real life situation. eg. ipponmen, is like men nuke men, and 2nd kata is kote nuke kote, 3rd kata can teach you about defending from tsuki...... etc etc etc.... You just sometime need to think about it abit and apply it into your kendo.

In fact, someone i knew in the psat actually likes kata more than kendo training....

[UpperMan]

Originally posted by mingshi
Sorry for all these. I'll just let it be Don't you dare let it be. It's thought and opinions like yours that makes people think. It forces them to evalute the ideology, usefulness and practicality of such things. If you don't question, then no one will tell you. Especially the nitty gritty stuff. And sometimes, there is no black or white answer, just a lot of grey.

Blind faith can be dangerous thing.

[LindaSmithIV]

Truth.

For the uchidachi, 'holding his blow', out of fear of striking the partner, is the best way to fail grading tests. The uchidachi MUST really try to strike the shidachi. And the shidachi HAS to respond.

So, even with you have to do the cut slower than normal, it is still supposed to reach, or it's not kata, it's a dance, as said by Ogawa sensei, 8th dan, in recent visit to Brazil.

[Rounteetepe]

Originally posted by Achilles

In *real* kata, you step on the guys sword, smash him in face with your hilt, then bite his throat out. It isn't pretty or clean, but it's real war. I'm sure real sword duels wound up like most fights do in real life 80% of the time, with both combantants rolling around on the ground pulling each others hair. . . . I'm not quite sure that will be the case. most of the people would hope to kill each other a.s.a.p. I would definately not going to give the opponent the chance to get close to me. When he within cutting range, you would

[markkisil]

Originally posted by John W

• It improves my posture.
• It improves my level of zanshin/concentration.
• It teaches me correct distances.
• It improves my footwork.
• Gives me a better sense of timing.
• Teaches me to respect others.

Wow. Couldn't put it better. If you remove all of the 'It's 'My's, and 'Me's, then you would have the perfect opening to a chapter of Kendokata!

[engideNedmupe]

Ippon-me - beating technique with better technique

Nihon-me - beating the opponent but wounding them rather than killing them

Sambon-me - completely beating/controlling the opponent without wounding them (compassion and mercy)

Kodachi 1-3 are in the same flavour

... or something like that ... !

Sometimes I do bokuto practise, where all waza are done with bokuto and kote only.

We practise kata sometimes every class ... 30 mins or so.

[Njxatsbf]

Well, Kuri, all the kata are ultimately about ma-ai, aren't they? When I was first taught kata, my sensei used to emphasize that ippome is actually the most difficult kata form to master - because both players are in jodan, their regular conception of distance is dramatically altered, if not temporarily gone. And like you said, I guess pretty much the same can be said of yonhomme.

[doogiehoussi]

You know, it's pretty isolating. I constantly find my opinions on the exact opposite of the fence from the rest of you.

Still, that won't stop me from being honest. I respect you too much for that. Kata bores me. I don't see the need for it. I only do it because everyone else does and because it's required for grading. Even then, I find myself practicing the forms about a month before I know I have to test. I'd much rather fight.

[ricochettty]

Achilles, What is Kendo then? A sport and nothing more?

Would you have Kendo move into the realms of something like American proffesional boxing? Pro-football?

If the traditions, or useless aspects of kendo annoy you, why not just train to be the best fighter? Don't bother with gradings or kata...just fight and be the best.

Meng

[Muhabsssa]

I think Kata is very important to Kendo. Not refering to the traditional links with kenjutsu, I'll leave that out.

There is a lot we can learn from Kata that can be incorporated into kendo.

My Sensei trains us in detail on each kata and then later we learn to incorporate it into kendo.

Examples:

Ipponme- lightspring back then counter with a men cut.

Nihonme- Goad opponent into making a kote cut, spring back and counter with men.

Sanbonme- good for learning to keep centre.

Yohonme- good to parry men cuts then counter.

we haven't practiced beyond this.

Kata can teach us valuable lessons and should not be dismissed.

Meng

[cheaploans]

Strangely I don't think so.

But I also do not overestimate the martial value of the ten kata of kendo or the twelve of iaido. The links to koryu traditions, to me, are faint.

But anyway, I think very highly of kendo kata, because they simbolize the essence of the art.

[VastDrura]

Mingshi,
Partly one reason why kendo was invented was to allow people to hit one another without killing each other or seriously injuring each other. The problem through the early Edo period was that simply practicing Kata didn't cultivate the correct mindset.

Now back to the point: to correct this difficiency, many of the ryu-ha used shinai and practiced their techniques (eg: Jikishinkage-ryu, Shinkage-ryu, Hikita-ryu, Itto-ryu). This practice has been discontinued today. So yes, in the old days, the shinai (in some schools, the armor), was used to practice kenjutsu, and no, they did not only do kata.

Now about Kata itself. When kata is performed correctly, timing, seme, and awareness are all cultivated. I highly suggest you to watch the Zen-Nihon-Kendo-Renmei (All Japan Kendo Federation) tapes on Kendo Kata. It is apparent that the two people performing the kata have superb timing and awareness, able to react to movements and intent from one another.

Now about the koryu-kenjutsu. If you don't have the timing, intent, and awareness, you will get HURT! I have seen people get hit on the head with Naginata and Bokuto, as well as the chest, armpit, hands, feet, and knees in kata because they didn't have the correct intent and awareness.

In short, the reasons stated earlier in this thread are the reasons why one studys kendo-kata.

[Peabelilt]

Yeah, Olaf, it's been my limited experience that beginner's tend to really love the kata. For one thing, a lot of them, at least where I am, got into kendo because they wanted to learn how to "sword fight." So now this looks like the real deal! Also, sometimes they are grateful to be doing something a little more cerebral or relaxed than shinai kendo, which is exhausting!

I was taught first the "story" of the kata, then it was broken down. Then you do it a zillion times, even though it looks poor, then you start trying to fine-tune it. Over time, of course.

Thoughts on applications:

Ippon me - men nuki men

Nippon me - sort of like kote-suriage-kote, or kote-nuki-kote. Also teaches a lot about changing the angle of attack, changing the angle of seme.

sanpon me - wrist snaps. Also, tsuki, and seme pressure.

yonpon me - still thinking about it

gopon me - defense and counterattack against jodan

roku - kote-suriage-kote

shichi - Men-nuki-do. Classic.

These are just sketchy thoughts. I've been really appreciating Kendo World's article on "The Philosophy of Kata."

[Scukonaher]

««« But if you...if I link it into Kendo keiko....say #7, I'll be very confused on the footwork for a nuki-do cut. I learned that you can use the same footwork(left foot going foward) in real keiko: for kaeshi dou and I guess for nuki dou too.

It's a quite nice technique with the left foot leading foward after the cut.

[horoshevapola]

From my experience in Japan if you forget about doing kata you can forget about improving your kendo and moving up in dan rank. Failing to learn kata gets most people in not passing. Practice now so you can achieve your dan dream or whatever that may be .

[Susanleech]

Distance, timing and it 'explains' some of the more advanced techniques.

Jakob

[arrismVam]

Indeed, well put John W!

It has been my experience that many people seem to like kata at first, then ignore it and then later rediscover it when they start understanding what kendo is.

My guess is that a beginner thinks kata is cool because you are using a bokuto and they get to do the 'cool' kamaes they see in the movies. Then when they start wearing bougu they think it's a waste of time because they are not striking their partner and also since it is choreographed, it doesn't benefit their kendo. Later, they begin to realize that kata is not just mere forms. What John W stated becomes evident to them.

I've also noticed that people who perform kata well, generally have very clean kendo.

[pharmacologist30]

Hey Confound,
do you sometimes feel like you're the only real person and everyone else is a robot?

just wonderin'