[formobilagsw]

Well I have voted that I love kata. Perhaps enjoy kata rather than love it would be better, but oh well....

Anyway I could yarn on at great length about the benefits of kata but I think the main ones for me are..

*It improves my posture.
*It improves my level of zanshin/concentration.
*It teaches me correct distances.
*It improves my footwork.
*Gives me a better sense of timing.
*Teaches me to respect others.

I think most people who enjoy kendo will enjoy kata?

Fair comment?

[nikolapegayyyaasss]

Questions of "right-ness" aside, Achilles, how much have you practiced kata? I'm asking this as an honest question.

I think it is difficult to judge such things as useful or useless, unless one has done it for a while.

Practically speaking, when you do anything sans bogu (and more slowly), it's much easier to see what you're doing wrong and to correct it, right?

As to being tradition-bound, everybody talks about kendo tradition (me too), but sometimes we forget that kendo tradition is really short! And the set of kata is not as unyielding to change as you might think -- they, too, have evolved over time. Two examples: (1) it used to be that you do fumikomi as the shidachi (after deflecting uchidachi's tsuki and responding w/ a tsuki). But then ZNKR took that out; (2) in nanahonme, the uchidachi used to respond to shidachi's wakigamae with the same, but now that's been taken out too. Well, I guess I'm just trying to illustrate how kata evolve too.

But I agree with you on that blind faith is stupid.

I'm curious, how much importance does kumdo place on kata (I don't recall the Korean name for it)?

[drgshmcm]

Sometimes you don't see the value of something until you've done it for a few years. Then, one day, you smack yourself in the forehead and go, "Ohhhhhh!" This is the origin of Musashi's advice about letting yourself be the needle and thread and your instructor be the tailor.

I think whoever said that the kendo-no-kata are to remind kendo-ka of their koryu roots is onto something there. As well as transmit technique and philosophy, the purpose of the kendo-no-kata was, as I understand it, so that kendo-ka wouldn't forget how to weild a bokuto! I think it's understood that serious students of the sword will follow kendo and let the kata serve as an introduction to a koryu. The kendo-no-kata and setei-gata serve the same purpose, as a bridge between shinai kendo and kenjutsu/iaido.

[jyhugikuhih]

You can't give kata too much empasis as to what can be learned from it. I mean, come on, there's a HUGE difference between martial art and martial skill.

In *real* kata, you step on the guys sword, smash him in face with your hilt, then bite his throat out. It isn't pretty or clean, but it's real war. I'm sure real sword duels wound up like most fights do in real life 80% of the time, with both combantants rolling around on the ground pulling each others hair. . . .

[Tauntenue]

This is precisely where I was pushing the discussion...as Kuri and Charlie pointed out earlier, there are many practical elements to kata that can be translated into Kendo dynamics.

Indeed, you do not ever have two people with solid wooden swords "going at it" against each other in a series of pre-coreographed moves. But each kata - aside from illustrating the more macro-kendo concepts such as ma-ai and zanshin - is essentially a breakdown of the different parts that comprise many basic waza. Read Charlie's earlier post for accurate details.

As to your counter-arguments against each of the kata forms:
#1: Right, you rare have two ikkyu players squaring off in jodan. But kata wasn't crafted specifically for kendoists of a specific rank or playing style. It demonstrates the dyamics of a nuki men oji-waza.

#3: Not so much about kids experimenting with tsuki. It's more about seme, and constantly pressuring your opponent, driving forward, directing the force of your seme towards a tsuki strike. Just like when you go in for a men strike - you seme tsuki, but you don't really skewer your opponent. After all, why does the uchidachi "lose" in #3? The shidachi is pressuring forward too strong and too fast for him to "keep up" or defend against.

#4: Like Kuri, I think this is a lesson in ma-ai. When is it appropriate to strike? Consider how difficult it is to execute #4 correctly...

#7: Nuki-do. Indeed, uchidachi executes a large men begining with his left foot. The emphasis here is not on the uchidachi's strike but on the pupil's response. Classic, textbook nuki-do. Granted, you usually don't kneel down and go into waki-kamae for zanshin.

#9, 10: I just recently learned these so maybe I'm not exactly an authority figure to speak on them. Regardless, kata teaches you the dynamics of engaging in combat with a sword. And in a life and death situation where you are only armed with a short-sword, grabbing your opponent by the arm to inhibit him from striking with his sword may be a good idea. But even in #8-10 there are many elements that can be translated into regular shiai kendo - kaeshi waza in #8, #9, and deflecting incoming strikes in #10. Kaeshi-waza is kaeshi waza - it matters not whether you do it with a kodachi, a katana, or a shinai. The dynamics are all equivalent: you take all the energy an opponent strikes at you, and you hurl it all back at him, in the process defecting his shot.

The 3, 5 steps procedure...I don't know about this one. Granted it may be a bit monotonous, but there's naturally some ritualistic element to kendo kata.

[illignocearia]

I guess should have been more explicit: Kendo-kata does NOT teach kenjutsu. However it does teach timing, awareness, and seme, and the other things stated earlier, which do help your kendo skill.

[LkEHaduy]

Thank you people. I sincerely appreciate your advice. There're certain points I still do not understand, but for the moment I'd say, let it be.

Yes, Kendo no Kata teaches timing. Yes it teaches maai. Yes it teaches awareness. But now it's obvious that people lack maai and stuff when they're in armour with shinai. (may I say, blame the length+shape of shinai). I'm not saying Kata is useless --it's very good by itself. Of course, it's Koryu teachings, basing on real sword techniques. But if you...if I link it into Kendo keiko....say #7, I'll be very confused on the footwork for a nuki-do cut.

I object to the notion of Kata=Kendo. I do not think anyone with pure Kendo-no-kata training can suddenly switch to Kendo keiko. At least I'm sure that person will lose on tai-atari/tsuba-zeriai/any Hiki-waza. Before I start Kendo, I briefly touched kenjujsu (and still occationally practice some)... when I get in armour I was thinking... "Umm, cut his knees, cut his neck, thrust his belly"...

Sorry for all these. I'll just let it be

[HowardtheDuck]

I understand that kata teaches all these things, but you learn all of them more directly by practicing them in bogu with shinai. Want to learn maai? Kata teaches it, but it's far better to do strict maai drills. Want to learn timing? Kata teaches it, but it's far better to practice your timing (like debana kote drills). Want to learn posture? Kata teaches it, but it's far better to do suriashi and practice your posture.

Kata is like so many other things in kendo: Utterly tradition bound, questionable in its value, and surviving (I think) largely because nobody is willing to really question it, for fear of being perceived as impatient, immature, disobedient or *shudder* un-Japanese. This kind of blind adherence to tradition and failure to question teachers and leaders is exactly what lead to the present financial scandal rocking the AUSKF. Just because someone happens to be a.) Japanese and b.) older than you doesn't necessarily make him *right*.

Kata is a beautiful dance, but so is the waltz if it's done right. When I want to learn to dance, I'll take up dance classes.

[slarceSelia]

Originally posted by Kuri
Has anyone ever practiced kata wearing bogu? I've done it twice in total. It was an interesting experience actually striking the target. Although, the dynamics are slightly different because you're using a shinai rather than a bokuto (ie. straight vs curved blade, especially no 3) I've done this about twice. Yeah, things are a little different, but it definitely makes some points much more strongly than regular kata geiko. It makes learning some of the timings, particularly of the nuki waza, easier, and it encourages uchitachi to make honest attacks, so that shitachi has to do his part correctly rather than relying on uchitachi to not strike him out of fear of injuring him. It also emphasizes the whole "kata kore kendo, kendo kore kata" aspect of it.
Originally posted by Kuri
I wouldn't recommend it for beginners, they may try to hit their parner next time they do it without armour. Isn't that what uchitachi is supposed to do?

[PoideAdelereX]

A question for you fellas: what would you say is the most effective way to introduce and teach kata to beginners?

I think there are multiple issues to be addressed: 1. how to convince people that kata is actually constructive, in learning more about the dynamics of the sword, and in illustrating techniques that could be translated into useful waza in regular Kendo. 2. how to go about teaching kata from scratch: should you step the beginner through each kata, one at a time, step by step? Or should you take a more macro- view, and allow them to familiarize themselves with how all the kata proceed first, so they have a good idea of the "bigger picture"?

The reason I ask is that I think many of my peers, when first starting Kendo, tended to value kata practice very little, for the reason that it isn't "practical", or that it doesn't "fit" into any larger scheme of all things Kendo...

[OixKKcj1]

Has anyone ever practiced kata wearing bogu? I've done it twice in total. It was an interesting experience actually striking the target. Although, the dynamics are slightly different because you're using a shinai rather than a bokuto (ie. straight vs curved blade, especially no 3)

I wouldn't recommend it for beginners, they may try to hit their parner next time they do it without armour.

[Cabinanteerip]

Olaf, I totally agree. One of the most difficult aspects is to consistently finish where you started, without using any floor markings. That is obviously connected with ma and the interaction of both people practising.

[obHQNsY2]

Originally posted by Achilles
In *real* kata, you step on the guys sword, smash him in face with your hilt, then bite his throat out. It isn't pretty or clean, but it's real war. I'm sure real sword duels wound up like most fights do in real life 80% of the time, with both combantants rolling around on the ground pulling each others hair. . . . I totally agree with you. In a real combat, you'll do whatever it takes. Whether you can apply the kata to real applications is something everyone has a different opinion on (see all posts). I see it as pursuing a "way", and kata is just a reminder of its roots.

If I was going to use a sword as a true weapon, to kill, I would join a kenjutsu ryu and learn how to use it efficiently and effectively.

[occallExtet]

Kata is partly a dance, but it is not a blind sequence of movements and strikes. Kata is not only a physical exercise (ie, just going throught the movements without thinking or feeling), but should be a mental exercise as well.
For example, in number 1, the uchidachi should be pressured into hitting men by the shidachi. In number 3, the uchidachi should be pressured back by the strong seme of the shidachi following the attack.
It is true that you can learn many of these things with shinai-geiko, but never underestimate what can be learned in kata.

[gortusbig]

Olaf:

In regards to teaching beginners kata, I think that you've already answered your own Question 1. In my experience, beginners like kata b/c it's more like chambara (and that's ok at that stage), so if you emphasize exactly what you said re: learning the dynamics of a sword and how the forms help in regular kendo waza, they'll tend to believe you. In my experience, I don't believe I've met a beginner who's immediately doubted the importance of kata.

As to Question 2: in my dojo, the first 7 kata are performed for the beginners as an introduction. Then, each kata is broken down into the uchidachi and shidachi sets, each being learned separately (with no partner) with an emphasis kinda like in ku-kan datotsu suburi/waza. Of course, the relevance and points of each kata are also explained. Then when they have the motions more or less memorized, we pair them up. Repeat for each kata.

This methodology seems to work OK.

[Andrius]

Achilles, I think I'll be the second one to go against kata...

Consider where Kendo no Kata is from... A police-ryu, selection of 10 sword forms out of 200+ Ryuha/school all over Japan around the time. Do you remember what is in a Ryu? At the very beginning you train for the sword techniques using a bokuto, then you blah blah blah became a samurai using a real sword. The basics of sword techniques are Kata=Form. So all day everyday in those 200+ Koryu Kenjujsu Dojo, you practise your Kata! They do not do modern Kendo with armour!

Now all day you can only think of being in armour and fight with your shinai... (and a bad concept) for Shiai=real dueling... Apart from the few Ryuha that use armour, in those days, you goddamn only do kata! Only kata (plus suburi and daily chores)! No fights!

Kendo no Kata also exposes a lot of the unrealistic movement of modern Kendo, and many impossible situations when you use a shinai. For example:
#1. It's the first Kendo no Kata, yet it starts both sides in Jodan. Now people in ikkyu have to learn this, but they cannot possibly go Jodan when they do jikeiko etc. Plus when do you do Zanshin in Hidari-Jodan??
#3. Again another Kata for ikkyu with Tsuki... Now who said no Tsuki for kids? And someone mentioned the curve. So when you do for jikeiko and someone tsuki you, do you go for the curve-pull and think "Ummm, if this is a real sword...."?
#4. When would you see people going Hasso, and in response you actually go Waki??
#7. Nuki-do... which leg go first? Which leg stamp in Kendo? AND why kneel down? Okay I know it's Koryu teaching, but do you kneel down in jikeiko?
#8-10. Basically, in modern Kendo you cannot fight with a shinai in Kodachi's length (and it's not Nito!). And as in #9+#10, you cannot grab your opponent's arm in Kendo!

Would someone give any comments to the above confusion because I think if I ever tell all these to senior Sensei... They'll fail every grading of mine... Now I'm pretty fed up with the concepts of Kata, especially when I occationally practice the more realistic sword-using Koryu Kenjujsu, which uses various kamae and cuts on places beside the 4 kendo targets.

And last but not least, the 3-steps-in-5-steps-out procedures make Kendo no Kata very B.O.R.I.N.G.!! You have to consider maai 3 steps before? Because you expect the opponent to cut after 3 steps in the same distance?

Oh no... I've a really bad feeling about failing my kata part of grading....

[JeremyBalll]

There's the poll on how often you practice kata. How about what you think of them.

Discuss.....

[RildFiemodo]

KhawMengLee,

Yes, to me kumdo is 90% sport. The *more* part comes in occaisionally in the tightness of the community in which I practice, but there is little that kumdo does to develop my character that simply being a decent Christian doesn't already do. Kumdo is a sport to me, not a form of psychotherapy.

I would like to see kumdo in the olympics, and I would also like to see it gain the same commercial flavor (and popularity) of world cup soccer. Not American football, however, but that's only because I think that American sports in general are insular.

Cklin, honest answer. I hold 1-dan in kendo, so that means I have mastered and displayed mastery of kata 1-5. Koreans do have a kata, known as the "Bongook Kumbup", but it is barely emphasized at all. In all my time with my dojang thus far, I have yet to hear it so much as mentioned.

[Goooooblin]

Originally posted by Charlie
Thoughts on applications:
.....
yonpon me - still thinking about it I think it's mostly about ma. If your steps are normal size, then you'll end up being too close.

[ZX3URrBH]

At my nidan testing (I passed!) sensei said, "Kendo is kata. Kata is kendo." Nuff said, right? I'm also discovering that some of the things I have been practicing in kata for years have applications in shinai kendo and vice-versa. For example, the parrying in number 3 has really helped me develop the wrist-snapping necessary for quick-kote and sashi-men, and for harai attacks.