[FloareTraurne]

As Doctor A says we all go through here in Japan if we practice on a regular basis. If you come here you can expect some hard treatment.

Now I put my students throught it. But on a rather less violent basis. I am trying to get the best out of them that even they are not aware of unless we take things to extremes.

Now and again even as an adult I sometimes go to my old dojo and know even before I walk in the door whats going to happen. So I just bow in, bogu on and get up the top end for my medicine. But what I do know for sure is its only when I don't give my best that things get hairy.

What worries me are those that think they are teaching and do this for the wrong reasons. One would assume that Confound's Nandan should know better. However seeing a few more similar dorks of the same grade I can't say this doesnt happen. What stands out to me most of all is the fact that its a junior high schooler. If its high school you can expect things to liven up.
We teach them Kihon at Junior high then work on it at senior.

I have sustained a few unnecessary injuries and had to deal with situations before they got worse. One guy would go for kote so hard he would hit the floor if he missed. My arms were black and bruised. I did try to tell him but it didn't work. He would actually get so far inside the maai and catch you with kensaki on the elbow.

One week before a grading the last thing I wanted was an injury. So I had to deal with him. Its fine for these guys until that get it back. I wont forget one guy who was well known for nasty stuff who tried it out on a high ranking Japanese. I was waiting next in line at the time. I saw the Sensei's eyes widen with anger. Me and a few more noticed and said "Oh shit" Couple of seconds later he took his eardrum out!

I hope this thread is not putting people off who wish to try to challenge this rank as a more esteemed level in the future. Not all of us are like this! The peacock syndrome is a kendo illness we come across form time to time.

I dont understand a view of it breeding violence. Personaly I could look after myself quite well before I did MA. To me its a good method of working off all that excess energy.

P.s.
Quote- My physical condition and age would never allow me to do the same thing now.

Hey there Dr A your not that old yet are you? I remember your High School Kendo at Katsuura

Hyaku

[first_pr]

How do you judge something is right ? and what is wrong ?

Western culture always promote "civilised" way of training, but does it really work ?
Japanese culture uses..."bully" tactic (well, most people believe it is)... and is it really "Bully"

I think we all know, real "Bully" is not the way to go. But Do you believe the thing you see is really "Bully".
I know this new 7th-dan sensei just came to Singapore, young to be 7th dan, only 42 yrs old), and he have given people this impression of "unapproachable" and sometime down right bully (that is in Dojo, but he is absolutely nice person outside the dojo). For the "civilised" kendoka in singapore, its a toal different approach.
This sensei has introduced the "bully" tactic way of training, and alot of people having a hell of time (pushed till you sliding on the floor. Pinned you to the wall, and deliberate trip you over). But does people hate him ? no. Because he actually point out what he has been trying to tell people. Something are not an easy thing to explain. Especially in kendo. What is the better way to learn, other than "Physically" experience it?
Another point you might think on it. Do you treat Kendo as a "Sport" or "martial Art" ? If training are set according to the rule, it will only be useful in training. Anything outside, it will be totally useless.
eg. What if you do if you met another competitor in a shiai, who happen to play rough? Give up and complain foul ?! If a realy life and death duel of death, do you really care if you push someone over ?

[imawlBoli]

Originally posted by Confound
Let's start with the easy part:

[snippage]

I was disturbed that this nandan sensei (a junior high TEACHER) picked on such a young student. I've been beaten around before, sent rolling on the floor actually, how disgraceful.

Confound, the depth of your ignorance is truly staggering. I'm not sure what advice I can offer you save that you need to stop looking at this from the
'it's different from what I know and therefore wrong'
perspective. You are going to go mental if you can't accept that there are reasons other than the ones you immediately grasp for, to explain the events that you see around you.
The student who copped a beating wasn't too upset because he understands why it happened. You on the other hand have wasted several days it seems being indignant on his behalf.
Suck it up, shut your mouth for a while and think really hard about something before you try and impose your own beliefs and values on it. I'm ragging on you a bit I know, but I'm sure the ppl who have spent some time in Japan will agree with me - you're going about things the hard way. Could well be why you're having so many subsidiary dramas.



[more snippage]
He explained that he is only gentle with students he doesn't respect. (That did wonders for my self esteem right there... gee, thanks! Glad to know you hate me, sensei.)

He probably doesn't hate you. He's probably completely indifferent toward you. He probably sees you as someone who tries something until it gets difficult and then finds excuses about why things are too hard. It's not his job to hand out respect freely, it's your job to earn it. If you can.



[yet more snippage]
I've learned a valuable lesson from this, no it isn't some ennobling cross cultural vision, it's that a clever sensei can make things look far worse than they are, to scare other students into behaving better when it's their turn, while still giving the his student partner a thorough working over. it's still something i'm thinking about quite hard, because it really was a bit severe at times.
Then you haven't really learned much at all, sorry to say.



however, from watching the damage my students do to eachother in class (the Japanese are NOT gentle people, watch them pick up cats and dogs, all the pets i've met in this country are traumatized), it may just be normal for them. i've seen my students leave huge bruises on eachother just for fun, or watched them play paper rock scissors and then beat up the loser, all to pass the time. (seriously, punching the loser right in the stomach or the jaw, this is a very strange country indeed.)

maybe this is all because i live in the cultural backwater, the hick country, or japan. who knows, i've only lived in this little sludgy haven in the north, not anywhere else, so I only know what i've seen here.

c Do you always bitch and moan this much?
Seriously if you're not having a good time, perhaps you should accept that this isn't the place for you and leave. As far as moving to yet another area - well, you can't redecorate your kitchen by painting the outside of your house. Maybe you should look a little closer to home for the source of your problems.
It has been said that ignorance is bliss - congratulations on thoroughly disproving that hypothesis.

[hiedeemom]

This is horrendous. I for one have never seen the value in bullying as a "teaching" technique, and I think it is one of the things that puts many people off martial arts altogether. Its not a kendo thing by any means - a friend with a back problem was doing karate. The sensei insisted on some extreme stretches, which she wasnt able to do, as she explained. His solution was to sit on her back!!! Luckily (for both of them), he didnt do her permanent damage, but it could have done quite easily.

I guess this kind of behaviour stops when a so-called sensei gets sued heavily, or retaliated against outside of the dojo. Failing that, students with any sense will move to another dojo. And as for PE teachers - sadly then you dont get the choice (been there, got the mental scars....)

I dont think sensei should be soft, cuddly, considerate souls all the time, but I do think they should, as Confound says, be inspiring the best in people, both in and outside the dojo. As Hyaku says -
---
I step to the side, put my hand in the small of the back and push em through. Now and again I catch them across the backside with the shinai. More humiliating than painful. Or i start to run backwards if they dont take up on the cut fast enough.They soon get the hint and speed up.
---
....in other words, you can push people on, make them work to the limit, discover what their limits are and how they cope with them, without brutalising them in the process.

The dojo, to a huge degree, _is_ the sensei, and I for one feel truly honoured to be studying with mine. It is very sad to think of others suffering and not knowing any different.



Dave

[famosetroie]

Well.......it depends on the teacher. There are those that push a student to extremes doing that sort of thing. It's given and its taken and accepted. I can assure you that its a lot lighter nowadays than it used to be.

On the other hand some them are just plain bullies that are showing off. Sadly I have even come across people that have done this for my benefit. Not just in armour but "hard" slaps across the face after shiai practice.

Yours is a phys ed teacher. But lot of these people don't even have teaching qualifications although they teach Kendo to kids.

Generally they only tell a people a few times to get something right or correct a fault.
after then its oooooo that must have hurt!

I think its safe to say that most teachers tend to mellow with old age. My 40 year old Nandan has mellowed a lot and the results of the Kendobu seem none the worse for that bashing around. I was only a few years ago that the whole of the Ichinensei were on the floor within an hour of practice. Looked more like hospital casualty than a Dojo.

Saying this Confound you are perhaps identifying with a lots of people that never even start Kendo as they consider it barbaric.

Lets face it there are other methods to get the best. I step to the side, put my hand in the small of the back and push em through. Now and again I catch them across the backside with the shinai. More humiliating than painful. Or i start to run backwards if they dont take up on the cut fast enough.They soon get the hint and speed up. Motodachi gives cuts but should clearly move out of the way so as not to hinder a follow through.

I have had guys enter my senior dojo with a definate peacock sydrome. Some nasty deliberate tsukis into the side of the with out so much as an apology. The senior Sensei has never disciplined anyone and I have had to deal with them. A couple of tsuki- tai ataris and they take off like space shuttles. One guy went through the door (still closed). It acted as a good stretcher as he landed on it. But he "still" picks on others.

Hope this helps

Hyaku

Confound, email me sometime. I have been that too embarassing to mention work for 20 years now. sword@po.bunbun.ne.jp

[JeorgeNoxeref]

It seems to me that the answer to Confound's original question is quite clear.

It is not abuse -- it is simply "spirit training," something that is either very diluted or sorely lacking in most kendo outside of Japan/Korea (well, I generalize, at least in the US).

Unlike us beginners, nanadan sensei have the ability to judge how far they can push someone without really hurting them. So it's a bit unfair to label this sensei as "Evil Sensei." Sure the kid was probably not having a good time during the kakarigeiko, but since when is kakarigeiko supposed to be a prissy prance in the park? And as Confound said, it did not turn out as bad for the kid as he had thought. In some ways, the sensei probably helped the kid a lot, particularly when the kid moves on to high school and plays kendo at that level.

As for tsuki not being allowed at the junior high level, I think Confound has misinterpreted that rule. Certainly, students are not allowed to perform tsuki on each other, but I doubt this rule applies to the sensei when he is playing his student.

There are many different styles of teaching and I'm sure some would agree that learning only from the "nice old man" sensei means you've missed out on a lot. "Nice old sensei" whacking you on the back of your head as you zanshin from a men does not spirit-training make. And, in my opinion, spirit-training is a categorical imperative to becoming a strong kendo player.

Two things you can do if you're so disturbed by Confound's story: (1) Go read _Musashi no Ken_. Granted it's a stupid manga by someone who only learned kendo for 5 months, but it addresses this supposed abuse issue quite thoroughly -- it's a good story of a strong kendo mindset.
(2) Go to a Japanese college kendo gashuku. Stay for the whole time, go to every practice.

[vernotixas]

Originally posted by KhawMengLee

...if it doesn't kill ya...it makes ya stronger.

...or into a serial killer

[12Cickprior]

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a rugby buddy of mine. He is japanese and was telling me of the ragging in the clubs in Japan. Juniors are expected to do whatever the seniors tell them to do...

He refers to a story how they stuck a hot dog in between a juniors buttocks(yeeessss...) and he had to endure this torture in the nude.

When I looked at him incrediously he said, "what?! I got tortured as well! But it was OK because when I became a senior I could do the same to the juniors..."

I rest my case...violence breeds violence.

The amount of nightmare stories I hear....jeez

Still, at the same time...if it doesn't kill ya...it makes ya stronger. The dabate on this could go on for years...I mean on the other hand, look at how in the west we coddle to less intelligent(stupid) kid in class. We slow down the level so he/she wont feel stupid. At the same time the rest of the student's intelligence levels drop to the level of the stupid kid.


I think there needs to be a balance...a bit of stress will make you stronger...and to little will make you soft...

this is sooo much like buddhism.

Meng

[lLianneForbess]

Just a short comment. That's the kind of training I expected everyday as a high student in Japan. I went through it everytime I lined up to fight the sensei, as did my peers, and students in the neighbouring schools. It was terrifying, but I survived, as did everybody else. My physical condition and age would never allow me to do the same thing now, but to be honest, I'm glad I did it then. That's be cause I was able to do it then. My mind and body was resilient enough to deal withthe stress. I actually appreciate my teacher for taking me past my perceived limits, both physical and mental. It gave me a strong base to work with in my later kendo years.

The thing is it doesn't only happen in kendo, but most of the school sports clubs that I saw...Of course, I don't condone bullying, but regardless of how tough or violent a teacher may seem, it dosn't necessarily mean that it is bullying. In some cases it may be, but in other cases it isn't.

[VFOVkZBj]

'I must admit I use this "In front of people thing". Perhaps the biggest thing over here is not standing out too much and fitting in. It really goes to extremes.' (Hyaku)

The difference here between Japanese and Western culture couldn't be greater could it.

In the West: "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."
In Japan: "The nail that sticks out will be hammered back into place."

I know it's not a new observation but I still find it interesting. The effects (or clash) of this difference pop up subtly all the time in Western dojos.

[pBiRXp8u]

Confound is the sensei that you mentioned member of this forum ??!!

Richard

[Thigmaswams]

Confound,

An anthropological side of me wants to find a way to ask your sensei what he was doing and why, wants to ask what he expected the student was learning, when the sensei would do this and when not? And so on.

I don't think this is precisely a case of "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger" as it is well known that this kind of violence qua abuse breeds more in future generations. That little thing called "culture," i.e. "the last thing the fish sees is the water."

Is there anyway of approaching this sensei as a student wanting knowledge?

Right now we are all discussing a phenomena without the intentionality which may or may not be what we assume. No matter what, it will be interesting.

Regards,

Richard

[refdhbgtd]

I remember reading somewhere quite a while back (probably about another art) that genrally, when foreigners first arrive and start training in Japan, the sensei heap on the compliments. What a warm fuzzuy feeling that is. As time moves on, and a committment is established, the sensei take more interest in the students development and the compliments are replaced by criticism (constructive or otherwise). That also comes along with a thorough workout to point out all of the shortcomings that need to be addressed. By the time you're a senior (everything's relative), these actions become minimal as they've mostly been addressed and you can push yourself to the limit without the help of your sensei.

Each person has their own ideas of how to train effectively. How do you pass on your knowledge? Most likely drawing on our own experience. The Japanese teachers would most likely be drawing on that experience. Is it bullying, violence, assualt, child abuse...???? Unless yoyu're on the receiving end and can see the intention of the sensei, it can be difficult to draw an accurate conclusion.

I must admit that with my western way of thinking, I will never truelly understand the Japanese logic (is that and oxymoron?), but who am I to judge.....

[MannoFr]

Originally posted by Confound

You obviously have reading comprehension problems, or you have a large bee in your bonnet.
Oh yes, both of the above. Love to troll for lusers in my spare time too.


Take that angst and put it in a safety deposit box, you'll garner more interest on it there than you will here.

incidentally, i was a sociology major, so i've got that whole 'multicultural viewpoint' thing downpat.
bwah ha ha ha ha ha - good one.


I didn't say it was completely wrong, I just said I didn't think i was the right approach for that student. Try to read to the end and think about the original post before replying. Reading the whole thread helps too.
[snippage]
Uh, no I don't believe you did. You prattled on about what you assume was this particular students learning patterns and bitched about how horrible this particular sensei is.
As for me - yes I was trolling just a little, but if I thought you would be so easy to bait I wouldn't have bothered. Ignorant, dull and thin-skinned - damn you have some issues. And I stand by my original comment - your ignorance is staggering.
Okay - bored now. going to crawl back to my troll-hole. Rant away. No - really - knock yourself out.

[Maphpseurse]

This is FASCINATING!

Personally I don't hold to Confound's Evil Sensei's teaching methods, but there is an interesting debate here that crosses a few cultural borders (KW motto ahoy!).

First of all there is the other side to the kendo as sport debate. If kendo is a martial art, then its existence is based on killing. What are the remnants of that in modern kendo? I would say this particular teacher's methods are one remnant. I don't believe we need to embrace this part of kendo's history (that's why, after all, we're doing kendo and not kenjutsu, or serving in the army for that matter), but we must be fully cognisant of it.

The other interesting question is does this approach indeed "breed violence"? As kendoka we're constantly using violence in a controlled fashion. It is violence but without aggression. There can be subtler forms of power wielded brutally by senior members of a dojo, what one could call "Oedipal" or cross-generational violence. That is the violence of the older generation refusing to cede power to the younger. I think this is perhaps the really shocking thing that Confound witnessed, over and above the physical attack.

But I think one of the wonderful things about kendo generally is that it is mercifully free of such violence. Most senior kendoka are humbled by their kendo experience and this is a protective mechanism against such aggression. I've trained with many kendoka, and many of those have been through this kind of training, but I have never once trained with anyone I would describe as sadistic. Maybe I've been lucky. Maybe I'm forgetful.

I think the teachers you have to be wary of are those who avoid ever pitting themselves against kendoka of similar or greater ability - those who only fight kendoka weaker and less experienced than themselves. I think there is case for labelling such sensei as dangerous.

b

[Hbkj89D2]

Confound, sorry if you already covered this and I missed it (have only been skimming here), but is it possible that this "abused" student is weak/wimpy?

I see plenty of students in my dojo/dojang, and a lot of them whine about "abuse", when in reality they simply don't have the commitment, physical conditioning to put in the necessary work.

[carpartsho]

Hey~~ That's more like it!

It's a interschool taikai date and a team lost. Their sensei **slap slap** on both sides of the students face and knock them down the floor, not to mention he's probably shouting real loud at the time. Hey that's the end of the game and in front of everybody~~ Why?
........
I must admit I use this "In front of people thing". Perhaps the biggest thing over here is not standing out too much and fitting in. It really goes to extremes.

The downside is the not so strong students. The last time I looked at records near 28.000 were unable to join classes for various reasons. Also sometimes if you excell in something you get bullied.

The upside is if you deal with a bully in front of the class he loses. He wants to draw attention to himself but not "that" kind of attention.

To add a further point I have also seen Kendo teachers that perhaps seem to have had a disagreement at home. They come into the dojo like a bear with
a sore butt and take it out on someone.

I have to agree with Alex that I pick on them cos I like them. I know that the weaker kendoka will get picked on by the seniors so sometimes I give them a bit more attention to try and build them up.

Hyaku

[Frogzlovzy]

Hey~~ That's more like it!

Treat the whole thing as a serious training... Maybe Kendo is far more relaxing already for those who've been in military service. Why would you pick up Kendo in the first place when you can play tennis with your friends? Training in Kendo requires much more mental strength (in my opinion) then physical strength. In the dojo you know who's been teaching and how they teach the others. If you don't like it you can always leave right?

I suppose there were threads a few mounths ago illustrating the toughest Kendo training from the Riot Police Squad. Really depends on whether you can take it as discipline/love or bullying. You can always see fathers beating up sons. PE teachers being aggressive is really typical. Mmmm, a fellow kendoka who was also teaching English in Japan before once told this incident: It's a interschool taikai date and a team lost. Their sensei **slap slap** on both sides of the students face and knock them down the floor, not to mention he's probably shouting real loud at the time. Hey that's the end of the game and in front of everybody~~ Why?

Take it or leave it. Abusive dads cause sons to run away from home. But some do take it as respect & love. Just remind me of that Richard's dad in American Beauty, "Discipline!!!!"... Mmm...

Modern day Martial Arts. Now that you don't have to climb up a mountain to find a master for apprenticeship... Being pushed around is ...nothing. Some of you might have heard of the "Tough teachings" from my dojo (what a reputation!). But I feel like I'm learning through that, at least being more aware of posture etc. I don't take it personal. And I'm able to talk to sensei afterwards and explain things.

Enjoy your practice!

[Marat]

Hello clk

Did you read all the posts? There are some out there I can assure you. I think most of those that have been on the wrong end wont post here as they perhaps gave up!

Hyaku

[snunsebrugs]

Hyaku: I don't understand your post. "There are some out there..."? What's out there?

Kendoka that wish too hospitalize you.

Hyaku