[ceagsoosy]

Kent, that's easy. Because they enjoy the game and want to keep a foot in it. Because physical training helps you stay young. Because they are needed to train others.

Charlie, I appreciate your points, but none of the benefits you cite are unique to kumdo. I can get the same sense of hard work and triumph in the face of a challenge from boxing, a sport that is far less subjective and much less metaphysical than kumdo.

Durrell, you don't have to have a podium finish to enjoy a shiai. I've never gotten a medal. I made the quarterfinals in Cleveland (lost after a minute of encho, GAHH! FRUSTRATING!), but that's the farthest I've ever gone in a tournament. You don't see me dropping the game. Anyone who would do that doesn't really love kumdo in the first place. I like to win, but it's not like I go hang myself for losing.

Jerry, I really appreciate your understanding and that you make room for me to have my own opinions. Just so we understand each other, I'm not exactly speaking from ignorance. I got my shodan in a Japanese dojo before I switched to Korean kumdo. I speak Japanese and have lived in the country. I have read Hagakure, have read Go-Rin-No-Sho, have read the Lone Wolf & Cub series (that's half a joke). Never read the Shambala guide, but I have read This Is Kendo, Complete Guide to Kendo and Secrets of The Samurai. Point is, it's not like I haven't been exposed to the ideas you are bringing forward. It's more that, I've been exposed, considered them, and found that it ain't for me.

That being said, I *have* had the experience of being bowled over by 7-dans using invisible semme. So I know there's something to it. . .

[nermise]

I hate to constantly take the unpopular approach, but I think Eiga's answer to that question is a bit. . . well. . . far-fetched.

The idea that a sport, even one with metaphyscial underpinings like kendo, is a tool for self-improvement is a nice one, but it doesn't really hold in the long run.

I use kumdo to make myself a better athlete, sportsman, to steep myself in different cultures, to conquer fear and to rein in aggression. I suppose all of that "makes me a better person."

But how does one *really* become a better person? I mean, that's EVERYTHING, isn't it? Marriage and work and religion and therapy and socialization. The idea that kendo is in reality a self-help tool leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I don't want a self-help tool, I want a fun sport.

When I want to reflect on "being a better person", I talk with my pastor, read the bible, pray, call my mom, chat with my wife.

My goal in church is to be a better person. My goal in kumdo is to be a better fencer. It just seems like Eiga is choosing one hell of an indirect method to achieve the goal of character improvement.

[avaincmolla]

How could it evolve? Well, here are some suggestions. . . (let me just caveat by saying I do NOT necessarily agree with all of these, but they are examples of what some people would like to see change):

- electronic scoring as in western fencing. In present kendo, so much is up to the whim of the shimpan, who are frequently wrong. Matches can thus wind up as popularity contests. I always here kenshi (even high ranked Japanese kenshi) complain "that shimpan is blind!" or "I didn't get the point because I'm white" or "The head shimpan was an important man, and the other two didn't want to disagree with him, so they went along with a bad call." We always make fun of the weeble-woble shimpan who raises each arm half way a dozen times while he waits to see what the other shimpan are doing and then goes along with them. Electronic scoring would eliminate this, BUT it would also detract from concepts like zanshin and reduce the sport to the act of merely hitting. However, this could be remedied by making an electronically tracked hit the MINIMUM requirement for a point, and leaving the subjective questions up to the shimpan.

- Getting rid of sankyo during matches. Bowing is enough. Sankyo is redundant.

- Allowing cheering as in other sports. This makes it better for spectators and for some competitors.

- Allowing more diversity in color and decoration in uniforms and equipment.

- Allowing the use of local language in both court commands and zekken/myong-pan identification. There's no objection reason why "hajime" is somehow superior to "begin" or whatever the Spanish equivalent is for Mexican players, etc. . .

Again, these aren't necessarily things that I advocate, just ideas that buddies of mine have kicked my way. The idea that anything reaches a penultimate pinnacle is off. Nothing is ever "perfect".

[Accecyncphory]

Achilles...what ever your reason for practicing kendo is great with me...but there is much thought out there that the traditional martial arts are a lot about developing character and not just winning as in a sport....if you are only interested in the sport aspect then I wish you all the sucess at being the best kendoka you can be....however you may find much more richness in kendo if you take time to explore other possible benefits from your practice.....there are a couple of good books by Minoru Kiyota on the philosophical aspect of kendo....."The Shambala Guide to Kendo" which is easy to find....(Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc.)...and "Kendo: It's Philosophy. History and Means to Personal Growth"....out of print and harder to find a copy....My personal background is 30 years of karate and I am a novice to kendo but I believe in the axiom...."the ultimate goal of karate(martial arts) lies not in victory or defeat, but in the perfection of the character of its participants"....Gichen Funakoshi.....explore the concept of michi or do.......

[Xbcofega]

I believe the evolution should be in the kendo-ka and not in kendo.....training methods and individuals can always evolve as part of your evolution as an individual....what is your reason for practicing kendo....to score points....to win tournaments.....or to become a better person and contribute to others....as far as using Japanese language in matches that is the easiest way to conduct matches......if one competitior is from Spain and one from the United States.....both should know Japanese commands from the shimpan....the next match may be a Russian and a German....it is logical to use Japanese....those of you who have never refereed in a martial art need to ....it will give you a greater appreciation of the dedication and effort that those individuals give to the art......do we make mistakes...yes....is there not just as much if not more to learn from not winning ( and I emphasize not winning vs loosing) than there is from always winning....kendo has evolved greatly over the years....swordsman no longer use shinken or bokken for matches....can you imagine a match without bogu....do you not win by points instead of who lives.....I think there has been much evolution but lets not forget that we are talking about the oldest and most traditional of Japanese Martial Arts....

[Luisabens]

Well this thread has come a long way since "what do you have on your zekken" - but I like that - just like in the pub!

It seems a lot of this talk comes down to 'Traditional Japanese' v 'Nike Logo'.
I would just like to make the observation that Japanese 'Traditional' budo is evolving - putting a ceiling on the dan grade at 8th dan, and introducing new kata to iaido recently seem like the Japanese are 'okay slowly' shaping kendo in some significant ways.
I wonder what people think about these developments, okay that's another thread, but it seems to tack onto this meandering thread. What happens in the future when Japanese have only 8dans and other countries (okay Koreans ) decide to keep 9dans.

oops didn't just start something did I?
james

[EmpokemyMok]

I don't think winning in kendo is the most important thing it's only a bonus that would boost your confindence(too much maybe). It is also a way to tell yourself that all the training you are doing is giving you something in return.

I won a tournament last week (mudansha division) in Waterloo Ont and everyone have been telling me how good I did etc..but actually after viewing the video tape of it I was concerned about how my kendo looked. Some of the points, I got, were not very clear and I disagree with some of them, so for next time I enter a competition I want to make the most perfect points possible (if i'm able to)! (it's just a way of thinking.) I want the shinpan to raise the 3 flags without hesitation!

A lot of people complaint about shinpan not being good and making bad decisions. I agree some of them are arrogant and think they always give the best decision, sometimes they don't have enough humility: like after raising the flag they wouldn't be able to put it back down (refusing the point, for bad zanshin or whatever)... Others just wait for a shinpan with more experience to wave the flag and do the same thing (that's the worst!).

But these people are also kenshi, they are learning too. A tournament for them is the same thing as for a competitor, they want to(or should) give their best. If I continue kendo for long enough I also want to be shinpan in tournaments, but for my first tournament don't except me to be very fair.

Anyway i'm totaly against using electronic devices in kendo...(...cuz i wouldn't be able to win anymore)

Yo is it just me or I wrote a lot without telling anything?

[RogHammon]

It is not fair to say that kendo is unchanging. A good book to see the evolution of Kendo is "Modern Bujutsu and Budo" by Donn F. Draeger. Kendo has changed since it's conception in the 1700's. However, most of these changes have been done out of safetly and through evolution of techniques. It is interesting that through the changes, it has one eye always looking at the past remembering it's origins. I believe that this is one of the greatest strengths of Kendo.

Plus, Alex has brought up an excellent point that I have never thought of: having one language ensures universal comprehension.

[blankostaroe]

I actually didn't know about the coaching rule, and was spoken to by a shimpan about it recently. Boy was I embarassed! I think I had kind of gotten used to judo, where everybody's screaming advice to the participants from all sides.

To tell you the truth, I don't think I was coaching that badly. I think I kept yelling things like "Mix up your attacks" and "Keep the pressure on." However, I learned my lesson!

Someone - several someones - made the very important point: winning isn't everything, it's not even the focus, of kendo. Shiai is important, and gives one a visual goal towards one's training, but really I think the most important part of kendo is shugyo, not shiai; doin' it every day, in your heart; leading the kendo lifestyle, whatever your interpretation of that is.

With kendo, I am reminded of boxers. When a boxer wins a match, he (or she!) doesn't usually say, "I'm the better fighter." That person says, "I was the bettery fighter *today*."

[PlayboyAtWork]

Heh, it's weird.
I personally disagree with all of them.

Electro scoring would eliminate the need for ki-ken-tai and most waza in general, since it's all about reaching the target with force. it'd become a brawl with bamboo sticks.

Sonkyo is beautiful. I like it. The more respect the better.

Cheering is okay after the match has ended, but it would not enhance kendo in any way. If you watched the 11 WKC official tape, you'll hear a lot of cheering in portuguese in the brazilian matches

Colors and such are a completely irrelevant subject IMO.

The language factor is interesting, but to keep a recognizable pattern everwhere there has to be a common tongue. Else if I was to travel to, say, Sweden, I wouldn't understand anything at all.

By the tone of some of these ideas i can see you advocate for them Achilles, such as the sonkyo one and the colors, which you like so much to mention in other threads.

I'm ok with your views, since you apparently have this sympathy for the korean ways, I just don't think so, because there are no clear reasons to do so.

[HornyMolly]

That's silly. If this is "more than a sport" and "winning isn't the objective" and if it's just fine to lose a point unfairly because the scoring system is subjective and inaccurate, then why do we bother to have competative tournaments and award metals and trophies?

If that's the case than Eiga can't *really* call himself the world champion can he? He can only say "well, I sort of won, but winning isn't really the point and the scoring isn't really accurate and I guess it could have gone either way."

Where's the pride in that? If kendo is REALLY not about winning, and scoring is subjective for a reason, then we shouldn't have competative tournaments that have clear winners and losers, and we shouldn't award medals or trophies.

[serius_06]

Meishi == Business card

If I remember correctly.

[Inconykic]

Interesting topic...
I still think having shinpan is essential. Having a computer keep score is a good idea, but judging is good practice for shinpan as well. Being able to watch both participants and accurately acertain between good and bad hits is essensial to furthering ones skills in kendo. It is no small wonder that judging is part of the yondan examination.

[Goksiodiffeli]

Personally, I would be horrified if kendo started behaving the way other martial arts have. If there were two or more competing kendo orgs that disagreed on some of the rules (like knee strikes or whatever). If rank were such an ambiguous thing that you could effectively buy whatever rank you wanted (karate, judo). Uniforms I'm not so concerned about, but I really think they are an outward manifestation of the important issue of changes within kendo.

How can something evolve which reached its pinnacle in the 1800s? Why does it need to "evolve"? It's sword combat - sword combat has hit the ceiling! It's not like judo where, for example, judo meets western wrestling, sees that western wrestling has a cool technique (like single or double leg takedowns) and adopts them (true story). A sword is a sword is a sword (in this case, a specific type of sword, a katana is a katana...); it doesn't need to be messed with, IMO.

Granted, kendo is very restrictive, there's a very clear-cut and rigid hierarchy, and bending rules is very rare. But I think that's too its credit, in the long run.

[Coollabioto]

Alex - The Brazillians are pretty good ..... just a matter of time before you are in the team! Remember to cheer for me when I am smashing a kote onto one of your brazillian mates!
Contact my kendo club nearer the time to ask about accomodation. If there isnt floor space we can def. give pointers.
Castles?!?! More here than any other country in europe, or so I read. 400-ish.

Meng - [embarressed]

Cheering - you are not aloud to shout kendoka's names, nor shout advice, but general noise is good methinks! At last years europeans there was some booing ... thats was *nasty* ... I hope the idiots who did that realise what it is they did.

Shimpan - how many people have tried? I recently did my first official shimpan-role at the hizen taikai (ask some of the guys here) ... it was tiring (but not long) and I was nervous! More nervous than fencing an italian 6th dan at the Euros last april!! AND the last point scored (which I gave) was dodgy .... I felt terrible. I had to have 1 or 2 beers to recover.
The point is : try it (in a proper taikai, not your dojo).

General - I think its easy to hit people, if thats all kendo is [to you] then how long will it take before you get bored of it? Same with coloured zekken and other bits and bobs. I have a green tsuru .... it kept me amused for about, oh, 1 hour!

Eiga sensei - just a general comment : myself and another Brit defeated Eiga sensei and [forgot name] sensei at table football last december, 8-3. Heh heh. I told him his kendo was ok, but his table-footbal waza sucked.. he then wrote something on my meishi... I think I am going to get a mashing the next time we meet!

Sorry for the ramble - i'm tired.

Cheers,

[Coededgeme]

Interesting point Achilles.

Maybe we should put your thoughts forward to the IKF and ask them to abolish competition. Otherwise, they should change the blurb they use for the purpose of kendo....

[FjFHQLJQ]

what is a meishi?

[Forexampleee]

nope i didn't go to cleveland :'(
too expensive no money..but i know some people from a club in montreal (montreal kendo club) who went there. They are fun people! btw remember who you fought?

Ah that's true Alex.. I didn't really think about that aspect. (you see; my head got really too big since last tournament)
I will have a harder time in dan division :P but I'm up for the challenge!

By the way did any of you guys heard about the tournament in Halifax? I will be going (too expensive but i have money now). People are trying to promote kendo on the east coast, so let's help them!