[pE71J5Sw]

I've read several books, and each one mentioned the maxim "You must first defeat yourself before you can defeat an opponent." Well, I began my 3rd month of training on Jan 7th, and this past Saturday it hit me. Everything was going along smoothly, but when we began kirikaeshi it all fell apart.

I began waaaay too fast, and completely screwed up... lost count, missed my target, etc. Next round, I over-thought the process and again lost rhythym. Last round, I was so out-of-sync, I mis-stepped and almost fell down. Funny thing is, it also happened to 3 of my fellow students.

Just wanted to share.

[plantBanceper]

I here you, man. I only did a couple months of kendo and had to stop. I start again end of Feb. Anyway, I've been trying to keep my hand in and did some kirikaeshi a couple weeks ago and first thing I did was go way to fast and nearly broke my friend's glasses.

I think the trick is to slow it all right down but still not try to think to much. Or something like that anyway.

[bWxNFI3c]

at beginners level it should be slow and big, that way the teacher can see and correct bad habits. it also makes it easier to do naturally and quickly later on. get the basics firts, e.g timing etc.

personally, when fighting i found it harder to do big iai cuts as they were too slow, but i got shouted at for doing ickle hits, and thats why i didnt grade well (and i wrenched my shoulder out doing my first kirikaesi cut-grrg)

but yeah, big and slow and rhythmical, to prevent tripping over yourself.

[makemoneyonli]

Been doing Kendo twice a week for nearly a year, still don't have the Bogu..
After a few months I felt pritty good about things, and felt that I was doing well.... until something new had to learnt. My first Kirikiashi was terrible, and it took me months to get it.. well correct, a few times I would have to stop and start from the beginning though. When I finally get to wear Bogu I guess I will have to sort of start all over again etc..

We all learn from our defeats ( I hope )

[Deseassaugs]

As Rottenpunk said... start out slow. It is important when doing kirikaeshi (as with all kendo) that you perform each strike correctly. To do this, especially as a beginner, means you need to take your time. As I tell beginners when I am helping to instruct 'if you learn proper technique from the start you can always speed it up later, if you start with poor technique no matter how fast you are you still have poor technique'.

[Kokomoxddcvcv]

>but yeah, big and slow and rhythmical, to prevent tripping over yourself.

And prevent knocking your friend's glasses off :P

Until I go back at the end of Feb I've been doing everything superslow now. It's good actually, concentrate on where my right hand is going, the tensen, tenouchi, getting feet and sword to stop moving at the same time, not breaking things, etc.

The problem I have with kirikaeshi is you get told to do it nice and slowly with big waza and even (as one sempai said to me after he saw I was having trouble with it) stop after every strike and make sure I'm ready for the next, but to do two passes in one breath. ???? I don't have the greatest lung capacity and that's not easy! I mean, having to do even one pass in one breath, with kiaing, encourages you to go quickly!

But I suppose that kind of brings us back to the reason this thread was written "First you must defeat yourself..." huh?

[Immarsecice]

>but yeah, big and slow and rhythmical, to prevent tripping over yourself.

And prevent knocking your friend's glasses off :P

Receiving properly is important too. I've taken a couple blows to the head due to poor receiving. Must hold shinai solid... Must hold it away from head... Must not tip sideways exposing the head...

Since earlier in the fall, before my schedule got messed up, I've been starting to think I could just do kirikaeshi as practice. Most all of the basics seem to be in that exercise--footwork, posture, cutting, etc. I mean if I can botch up that drill, I can botch everything else equally well, right? I think I tend to rush the whole drill, maybe it's too much thinking about trying to do everything right...

It can be pretty frustrating when it feels like you start a practice with a series of botched kirikaeshi--poor timing, sloppy cuts, losing count... Makes the whole day feel longer and more difficult. Oh, well, I'll just keep on working at it...

[MegaJIT]

A few months ago when a college class was at my dojo, we got to do Kira keishi for over 1 hour. My sempai said it's important to concentrate on doing good waza when you are tired, also another thing to do is concentrate on hitting the motodachi's men, not the shinai! I don't think you are supposed to do it in one breath when you first start.

[chuecaloversvvp]

"You must first defeat yourself before you can defeat an opponent." I was talking to a friend about this thread last night and he said to me something that stuck: 'a mantra shouldn't be negative and defeat is a very negative word'. Now that I think about it, it does sounds like you're trying to crush your own spirit! We came up with overcome. I think that's better. 'You must first overcome yourself before you can overcome your opponent'. Triumph and correction without the implication of downfall.

[Tuqofiw]

I've read several books, and each one mentioned the maxim "You must first defeat yourself before you can defeat an opponent." Well, I began my 3rd month of training on Jan 7th, and this past Saturday it hit me. Everything was going along smoothly, but when we began kirikaeshi it all fell apart.

I began waaaay too fast, and completely screwed up... lost count, missed my target, etc. Next round, I over-thought the process and again lost rhythym. Last round, I was so out-of-sync, I mis-stepped and almost fell down. Funny thing is, it also happened to 3 of my fellow students.

Just wanted to share.

I don't want to sound like an a**hole, but do you understand? This just sounds like beginner problems that can only be solved by a lot of training. Not some "I've seen the light" mumbo jumbo picked up from books. The "you must first defeat yourself before you can defeat an opponent" stuff is nice but it can only be done by loads of training, experience and, as a result of the experience and training, self control. Don't start reading books and say that you suddenly understand kendo/ iai or whatever MA you do, it doesn't work like that. Reading books is okee, background info is also necessary for your development as a martial artist.

Recognizing your mistakes is only the first step of improving your MA. You're only in the 3rd month of your training so don't expect miracles. Just like everyone in this tread has been telling you, take slow and do it correct. When your more experienced your can step up your pace. Good luck and keep on training (a lot), it’s the only way of getting things right.

I was talking to a friend about this thread last night and he said to me something that stuck: 'a mantra shouldn't be negative and defeat is a very negative word'. Now that I think about it, it does sounds like you're trying to crush your own spirit! We came up with overcome. I think that's better. 'You must first overcome yourself before you can overcome your opponent'. Triumph and correction without the implication of downfall.

Nice, impressive and profound. It all depends on who is victorious. For the winner the defeat of his opponent is not negative, even if you’re your own opponent. So defeat is not a negative word for the winner.

[hapasaparaz]

It all depends on who is victorious I remember something I've heard quite a lot - that when your opponent scores a hit on you, what they have done is effectively helped you by showing you where you left an openning. I think if you look at it that way, the person who scored the hit has gained by scoring the hit. The person who has been hit has gained by knowing where the weakness is (to overcome something, you need to know what you're overcoming).

Don't start reading books and say that you suddenly understand kendo/ iai or whatever MA you do I know what you mean T but in defence of Creepieguy, I know where he's coming from. You can hear something over and over again and understand it in theory as words. Then something happens (whether it be a good thing or a bad thing) and suddenly click, you get it and you really understand what it means. Not suddenly being able to do something perfectly or understand something perfectly but a kind of understanding that enables you to then take that to a new level. I've experienced this in tai chi, chi kung, archery and in kendo (being a beginner in kendo something will finally go 'click' and I go 'ah, I get it' and then I can start really progressing on it, even if it's just a feeling you get, like how you can just tell when an arrow is going to go straight, no matter how many times you get told before that first magical time you experience it, don't let fly unless it feels right).

Ack. That was rather long-winded. Did I make sense?

[wbeachcomber]

I remember something I've heard quite a lot - that when your opponent scores a hit on you, what they have done is effectively helped you by showing you where you left an openning. I think if you look at it that way, the person who scored the hit has gained by scoring the hit. The person who has been hit has gained by knowing where the weakness is (to overcome something, you need to know what you're overcoming).

(I can't believe I'm doing this) Apparently we're going on the philosophical tour. But who is the winner in this game? It all depends on how you describe a winner. The one who scored the point or the one who learned the most during that match? Or are they both winners because they both learned something? In other words, what's the definition of a winner? This differs per situation and is something we can discuss for days (please don't). The same thing goes for defeat. Defeat can be a win-win, a win lose or a lose-lose situation. It al depends how you look at your (or at your opponents) defeat.
But what I was trying to say with my previous post, defeat is not a negative word. I got carried away (just a bit)

I know what you mean T but in defence of Creepieguy, I know where he's coming from. You can hear something over and over again and understand it in theory as words. Then something happens (whether it be a good thing or a bad thing) and suddenly click, you get it and you really understand what it means. Not suddenly being able to do something perfectly or understand something perfectly but a kind of understanding that enables you to then take that to a new level. I've experienced this in tai chi, chi kung, archery and in kendo (being a beginner in kendo something will finally go 'click' and I go 'ah, I get it' and then I can start really progressing on it, even if it's just a feeling you get, like how you can just tell when an arrow is going to go straight, no matter how many times you get told before that first magical time you experience it, don't let fly unless it feels right).

Ack. That was rather long-winded. Did I make sense?

I don't know... I really don't. The click sounds nice, but I never had the magical experience (am I missing something?). When I do things correctly, I don't get the great click, I get the "let's work on the next problem" feeling or the "hmmm... surprising, I can do this correctly" feeling. I leave the great click for my moment of enlightenment .

I'm not a very spiritual person so when someone starts talking about how he/ she read some books and the next lesson or so he/she suddenly got it (and make it sound like an amazing moment of clarity), alarm bells start ringing and most of the time they didn't get it.

I've seen people whose exercise went smooth and they where so pleased with themselves until the sensei started talking... and the magical moment was gone. Do you see my problem?

Now creepyguy, I'm not trying to shoot you down here. You sound like a nice guy (except for the nickname , how did you come up with that one anyway?) and it's great that you are willing to share your experiences and every experienced kendoka has gone trough the phase your going trough (or will go trough). They can relate with all your kendo experiences and can help you out with your (future) kendo issues. So please don’t let me scare you off, I’m a little harsh sometimes, but I don’t mean any harm (I should use this as a disclamer ). Keep us informed and keep posting.