[giturbewan]

Glad you replied so well!!

Because I myself feel attracted by the shinsengumi I just wanted to know why hahaha, now I know some facts that maybe had cleared my questions.

thanks guys, any more inputs are welcome.

[AALee]

Hmm..there are a few things that needs a little more explanation. But first, to answer you questions:

My question is why? weren't they assassins? ruthless hitmans?

The Shinsengumi, first and foremost, functions as a police force that kept the peace during the Bakumatsu (End of the Shogunate; not the Meiji era). They're like the NYPD or SWAT, if you may, but they certainly were not in it out of malice. Yes, they were pro-Tokugawa, and yes they have been known to cause fear amongst the townsfolk, but one must understand that just because history dictates that it was their faction that lost in the war--and, in terms of more relative media, that a certain Saitoh Hajime and Okita Souji were after the head of the hitokiri-turned-hero Himura Kenshin--does not necessesarily conclude that they should be viewed so negatively. Their history is often misconstrued by popular wisdom that is sometimes rather differently (not wrongly, mind you) influenced.

Admittedly, there was a time when the group were reputd to be "ruthless" killers. However, this was when Serizawa Kamo was still their commander; they were not even called Shinsengumi then. They were the Roshigumi, hence where the nickname "Miburoshi" or "Miburo" was derived from. It was only when Kondo assumed the position of Commander after Serizawa's death that they became the Shinsengumi.

They were not assassins, though it would be presumptious to say that they were not capable of doing so (as is with the case with Serizawa's assassination who was assassinated under the order of Aizu's daimyo, Matsudaira Katamori), but this was not their primary--nor was it their--purpose. During those times, it was the hitokiri that was responsible for assassinations. They do have, however, shinobi: spies, in the english language (such as Yamazaki Susumu). And as such, they were the eyes and ears of the Shinsengumi that infiltrated suspicious circles and foil their attempts to disrupt the peace that the group so fiercely protected.

were they good guys or bad guys? I've heard that they were like the police in the meiji era, but, was their duty to kill samurais? Samurais who were against the "new era" and wanted to keep their tradition and culture and didn't want to 'weternize'.

I would have to agree with KenShi_Job in what he said that there is "no such thing as absolute line for good guy or bad guy...They are not saints for sure." But what is also true is that they stayed true to their purpose and did what they were supposed to do.

While it is certain that many of them did not like the idea of a westernized Japan, they weren't the ones who instigated riots either. They were the ones who contained these incidents from blowing way out of proportion. Samurai weren't the only ones that were capable of such deeds, but since it was their ranks that were most vocal and most visible, it's not hard to see why majority of their most wanted list are samurai.

The popularity of the group did not depend on one man alone. It depended on the fact that they were friends and stayed true in their loyalty despite how difficult things became for them. Success depends on the cohesiveness of a unit and their discipline, and these are important factors why they functioned so well and gained the status that they were in. Despite their awful start (that unfortunately hounded them to the very end), what they did afterwards did outweigh the misdeeds that were done by Serizawa Kamo and Niimi Nishiki, not Yamanami. (And Yamanami was not a captain; he was also a Vice-Commander. If Hijikata Toshizowas the right hand mand of Kondo Isami, Yamanami Heisuke was the left hand man. Also, he was NOT assassinated behind Kondo's back as it was Kondo's group who carried out the job. I believe it was Kondo himself, Hijikata, Okita, Ito and Yamanami; I'm not sure. But it certainly was NOT without Kondo's knowledge.)

The Shinsengumi attacked people in groups another reason they lived up to their nickname as wolves.

They didn't attack randomly in "packs". They patroled around the city in groups of two or three's on shifting schedules; sometimes even more depending on where they were going. So when a disturbance occurs, naturally there would be some sort of back up hence why they seemed to be found in numbers.

They were heroes in japan because they adhered to the strict code of samurai ethics and if not they were punished by their superiors.

Not so severely. There were certain sanctions for certain misdeeds, that's for sure.

Kondou Isami was the leader of the Shinsengumi until Hijikata took over.

Hijikata NEVER took over Kondo's leadership. You could say that Kondo was the brains; Hijikata, the muscle. Basically, Kondo was active with politics of the time. He was the guy who went out and met with the high-ups. Hijikata was the only one under him, so he dealt with the day-to-day functions. The high-ups of those times usually had lots of men to do this for them, so Kondo leaving it to Hijikata was not unusual, but rather expected. What was unusual was Hijikata handling it all alone. It made the group more efficient than most at that time because only one person had to reach a decision. However it put Hijikata in the difficult position of not being able to make a mistake. The dirty part of the job was the guys lower down had to take responsibility to save the boss' face. But in general, several people were to blame and could get off rather easy. Hijikata had no one to take the blame with him and might have had to commit seppuku for the slightest mistake. If he was strict and careful, it was for this reason. And that's also why Kondo would have not been dealing with the day-to-day stuff.. To protect him if something did happen. Nevertheless, when it really mattered, he was in charge.

Hijikata would kill anyone more mercilessly than his predecessor if they didn't follow the rules of the Shinsengumi. I believe their was a story that said he even killed one of his best friends.

If they did "cut people down immediately", how did they question so many people about the events that lead up to Ikedaya? They only detained those they captured or surrendered. The only time they cut down anyone was when they resisted arrest or put up a fight. It was all necessary brutality, but who wasn't brutal during the Bakumatsu? They studied the way of the sword, which is highly stylized murder.

Also, the "Dreaded Articles" or "Kyokuchu Hatto" were five basic rules that was based on the principles of Bushido. It was strict, yes, but only applied to those foolish enough to turn their backs against the Shinsengumi. However, it is said that this was only a fabrication by a certain historian namend Shimosawa Kan. He claimed to have found this in Saitoh's notes, but nobody seemed to have even seen the documents.

While it is a commonly accepted idea that leaving the group was tantamount to seppuku, they did actually let people leave. Tani Mantaro and Abe Juro both left the group at one time or another. Abe quit after Serizawa's death. He did NOT hide from them, because he stayed in Osaka at the Tani dojo while all three Tani brothers were still part of the group. So he had permission to leave.

Tani Mantaro got permission to leave after the death of his older brother, Capt. Tani Sanjuro. Again, he did not hide but went back to his dojo in Osaka. The very fact that Takeda approached them about his leaving under the guise that he wanted to go home was proof that they did in fact let people who wanted to go leave. They only prevented it in the cases like takeda's or Ito's where they knew the person was up to something.

As for the additional rules that they should commit seppuku when wounded? Harada was slightly injured on several occasions. Oishi was injured at least once or twice as well... They were not ordered to kill themselves. Think about it...Souji was said to have collapsed during the Ikedaya-jiken. If he did, then the whole 1st unit would have been wiped out, ne?

For more information on the Shinsengumi, go to Shinsengumi no Makoto. It has a very comprehensive database on the personas of the ten captains and other people that constituted the group.

Hope that helps.

[giftbestcom]

I think it's pretty sinple, they were pretty brave and killed people while dressed like cockatoos

[StizePypemype]

That uniform, if it existed at all, only lasted for about a year. Evidence suggests that the Shinsengumi in fact wore NORMAL clothing, not the blue and white we generally think of. If they did wear such an outfit, we're not even sure it was blue and white. It may have been yellow and white, the colors of Aizu. Serizawa always had that certain flair for the dramatic...

I don't think it's all that simple...

[WaydayTew]

That uniform, if it existed at all, only lasted for about a year. Evidence suggests that the Shinsengumi in fact wore NORMAL clothing, not the blue and white we generally think of. If they did wear such an outfit, we're not even sure it was blue and white. It may have been yellow and white, the colors of Aizu. Serizawa always had that certain flair for the dramatic...

I don't think it's all that simple...

Yes...the truth is that they wore bright pink Haori's and their kamon was a Hello Kitty inside a circle. They pranced about singing the smurf theme song. The samurai at the time were so embarresed by this 'unmacho' image that they all vowed that this page in history would never be repeated and rewrote the shinsengumi as the killers we see them to be today.

[agiopwer]

kahahah rofl

[KaterinaNJq]

Yes...the truth is that they wore bright pink Haori's and their kamon was a Hello Kitty inside a circle. They pranced about singing the smurf theme song. The samurai at the time were so embarresed by this 'unmacho' image that they all vowed that this page in history would never be repeated and rewrote the shinsengumi as the killers we see them to be today.

Oh, man!!!, I've been living in a lie!!!!
I feel as sad and depressed as when I came to know that Santa was all bullshit...... u're guilty for my tears!!!!! Shame on you!!!!

[ljq0AYOV]

hehe, this thread is so informative, all i knew about the shinsengumi was what they showed in peace maker kurogane and a few other things, lol

[AsmViktor]

Yes...the truth is that they wore bright pink Haori's and their kamon was a Hello Kitty inside a circle. They pranced about singing the smurf theme song. The samurai at the time were so embarresed by this 'unmacho' image that they all vowed that this page in history would never be repeated and rewrote the shinsengumi as the killers we see them to be today.

*snort* You forgot the sequined brooch with the bright neon feathers. That, or the Big S they have stitched on the backs of their haori--our very first sighting of the cult insignia that somehow eventually got patented by Superman.

[galaktiusman]

speaking of the devil, i would like to recommend this movie here as well:

mibu gishi den (2003) - directed by yojiro takita ★★★★★
best chanbara/jidaigeki film i've seen since tasogare seibei. must see if you like the shinsengumi... also the first movie i've seen about the miburô that actually displays characters and actors faithfully resembling those on the real pictures of the shinsen members.

IMDB DATA: http://imdb.com/title/tt0359692/

[bppstorr]

speaking of the devil, i would like to recommend this movie here as well(i did on my blog/journal a few days ago):

mibu gishi den (2003) - directed by yojiro takita ★★★★★
best chanbara/jidaigeki film i've seen since tasogare seibei. must see if you like the shinsengumi... also the first movie i've seen about the miburô that actually displays characters and actors faithfully resembling those on the real pictures of the shinsen members.

IMDB DATA: http://imdb.com/title/tt0359692/

it's really good....

[truck]

Oh, man!!!, I've been living in a lie!!!!
I feel as sad and depressed as when I came to know that Santa was all bullshit...... u're guilty for my tears!!!!! Shame on you!!!!

Muahahahahahahaa! Another young mind turned to the dark side...Satan would be pleased...

************************************************** ******
Mibu Gishi Den is great...especially the bit where he wants more money for his 'chipped' blade.

[KhJOHbTM]

Admittedly, there was a time when the group were reputd to be "ruthless" killers. However, this was when Serizawa Kamo was still their commander; they were not even called Shinsengumi then. They were the Roshigumi, hence where the nickname "Miburoshi" or "Miburo" was derived from. It was only when Kondo assumed the position of Commander after Serizawa's death that they became the Shinsengumi.

Interesting. That would mean that Serizawa's identification of himself as a "captain of the Shinsengumi" in the film "Sword of Doom" is anachronistic.

Getting back to the OP's question, I don't really know to what extent the actions of the Shinsengumi could be viewed as sympathetic. I do, however, find their history fascinating. Good guys or bad guys, they had some very colourful characters in their ranks. Just reading about them, the words attributed to them, the koryu they studied etc. makes for some very interesting web-browsing, when I've got the time.

[DrunkMans]

I think in real-life, there is no such thing as absolute line for good guy or bad guy. shinsengumi is a pro-tokugawa samurais that fight against the isshin shishi samurais that want to put the emperor back in power. Shinsengumi lost. both side kill each others. They are not saints for sure. Since people like story about samurai, shinsengumi were one of the last active group of samurais so they are popular. IMHO

[MartZubok]

Hijikata actually had Yamanami commit seppuku for trying to leave the organization... and Hijikata had Serizawa killed by other memebers of the shinsengumi in secret behind Kondo's back. Even Saitou Hajime, caption of squad three took out other unethical memebers of the shinsengumi. All in all, they were a pretty brutal bunch.

[MightyMasd]

I see in other threads tha many people is attracted by the shinsengumi. My question is why? weren't they assassins? ruthless hitmans?

So , were they good guys or bad guys? I've heard that they were like the police in the meiji era, but, was their duty to kill samurais? Samurais who were against the "new era" and wanted to keep their tradition and culture and didn't want to 'weternize'.

enlighten me with some facts.

Chill out!

[Adiamant]

I have to confess that this is a question that has bothered me for some time. After all, they were just one among many groups of 'enforcers' of the period, and yet they gained enormous popularity. One of the reasons undoubtedly resides in the Ikedaya-jiken, but i tend to suspect that if you want to understand the popularity of the shinsengumi, there's only one name that you really have to look at: Hijikata Tozo.

[smirnoffdear]

The Shinsengumi was an ultra-conservative group that wanted to keep Japan how it had been for 300 years; with the shogun in charge and the samurai just under him. It was established as a freelance policing unit that would eliminate anyone who challanged the status quo. They adhered to their strict code that encouraged teamwork and prohibited personal vendettas. Any infraction of the basic rules was seppuku.

Historically, everyone likes the people who stand up and fight for what they believe in, and a lot of respect is won by those who fight to the bitter end. "Last Stands" always generate sympathy/empathy towards the last standers. Examples: Custer, The Alamo, Thermopylae (sp?). Even when the Shinsengumi knew that they had already lost, they kept fighting anyway.