[Erexecike]

I think mental illness in swordsmanship is a topic that is well earned and should be addressed in a forum such as this.

I am mentally ill, I am a sword student. To all sword students out there, I hope this thread is informative and supportive and builds confidence to our desire to train in the art.

I am willing to answer sincere questions about mental illness and it's relationship to swordsmanship. I find swordsmanship (and my doctors find swordsmanship) beneficial to help keep this disability under control. I practice and train because I love it. Just like the rest of us.

Feel free to make comments, experiences, and opinions, that's what a forum's for too. But my apologies, I will only respond to questions a couple of times a day until this thread's curiosity is answered. Answering questions is easier for me.

There has to be questions. Lots of them because the person you are training with may be mentally ill and be and look 'normal'. Then there are people who may be normal and act insane how do you tell the difference? 3% of the population is according to NAMI (US based National Alliance for the Mentally Ill). Odds are, you know one of us in your routine life.

Sincerely,
Danette
Age 36
Location Twin Cities Metro Area
Time in swordsmanship: 3 years and counting
Training: Kenjitsu and Iaido
Age of psychosis: 33 years
Hospitalization psych ward stay: 14 days
Diagnosis: Bipolar disorder with psychotic tendancy

[fkisjjdhh]

So do you feel any disadvantages doing kendo? Or mayb advantages?

[Worseacar]

I find swordsmanship (and my doctors find swordsmanship) beneficial to help keep this disability under control.

Discuss.

What is it that helps? The physical action of the arts in question or the mental discipline?

[SpeavaJap]

I can only reply to this as my own experience. Everyone with mental illness is different except for basic symptoms. Personality plays a large roll in the difference.

I have never practiced Kendo.

I have practiced with bokken sparing with full kendo armor.

My disadvantages, I consider my advantage.

All the sword practices I have experienced and read require stillness/calmness of mind. And awareness of everything. A mentally ill person does not inheritly have this stillness and is at a disadvantage.

The advantage of this to me is I am aware of stillness of mind and the fluff of emotions. I am able to call them out and know my limitations.

Otherwise, besides medication side effects. (Ugh don't get my started on that) It's the usual coordination, reflex, and memorization issues any student would have. The advantage in this is one finds and strengthens thier will.

The only thing a mentally ill person (in my opinion) has control over is will. Will's a lot like a muscle, you don't use it, you lose it. And why I feel practing swordmanship is so important to me. The advantage of not being able to easily control attitude is it gives me drive to be a swordsman the rest of my life.

I hope this answers your question and isn't too lengthy.
-Danette

[DaleJrGirl]

This is going to sound like a horribley ignorant question but I mean it most genuinely: do you ever worry that you may have a psychotic episode whilst using an iato or bokken? Or has this ever happened and how was it dealt with?

[xpllmr]

Your question is not ignorant and is rather thoughtful in my POV.

At first experiencing and trying to understanding my illness, I was very scared about having a psychotic episode while practicing. This was not and is not the case for the following reasons.

I am under medical care. With monitoring by qualified physicians, I am able to be treaded and lead a normal life. With this support system, you will not have a psychosis and be able to stem on off if one should start. A psychosis, like a heart attack, usually doesn't happen overnight and there are warning signs.

Next, a healthy bad-stress free life makes the monitoring and medications easier.

Last and most important. Your instructor should know your condition. To me a Dojo is a part of my support system and they can assist and determine if things aren't right. Like in my case, I shouldn't get push ups for correction but quiet meditation... etc.

I leave it up to the dojo's judgment to tell my condition to other students or not. I not sure, but I think this is a private thing and needs permission of the disabled person.

If I say I'm not feeling good, they will make accommodations similar to if you show up with a sprained ankle. If I'm in trouble, they will know and call paramedics because my condition is disclosed. If the dojo does not know symptoms of mental illness there is plenty of information on the NAMI website to offer assistance with this disability.

Today, I have no worries about psychosis. Even though a terrifying experience for everyone involved (family, friends, etc), I have the knowledge and the care now to prevent this form of 'brain attack' again. This in no means say I won't get symptoms.

Symptoms, I know about, and take great care of to nip them in the bud. If it means I have to take a three month hiatus from the dojo to change medications and improve my mental health. So be it. This part of the illness is similar to diabetes. And makes practicing difficult, but I'm in no rush for belts. I have a lifetime for belts.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about psychosis from a diagnosed patient who's under care. It happens to the undiagnosed and those that refuse care. Unfortunately, most people have little emergency/symptom knowledge for such a condition, and the attack can be extreme due to that. Most major illnesses are like that.

Thanks. A good question, and a lengthy response to answer.
Danette

[tsaaapla]

What is it that helps? The physical action of the arts in question or the mental discipline?

My guess is the normal interaction with people. Since the dojo mindset negates gender, color, and other things that normally change the way we interact with people. It's a change to really be just another person. It can be really debilitating to have everyone always treat you a little funny or never to be able to blend in. Everyone, mentally ill or otherwise, needs something in life to hold on to and help form their identity and provide self-confidence.

do you ever worry that you may have a psychotic episode whilst using an iato or bokken?

I'd be more worried about the manic days off the medication--no live blades please (but I'm queasy at live blades anyway). Other than that, lets get to work. I don't have any objections to training with someone with a bipolar condition.

I've had to deal with a few bipolar people in life (family). I'm not an expert on the conditions. I've passed my psych classes in college, and I've been through the wringer a couple times personally and even dealt with some non-family at work. They're usually fine. When they're not, you can tell quickly enough, and rate the day accordingly. For the ones I know, it usually takes a pretty serious emotional event to push them off balance.

Realize the manic or self-aggrandizing persona is sometimes just a slight bit more crazed than the average male teenage self-realized samuari (they appear here regularly). So, when they talk it can be obvious they're having a manic day. In an extreme manic episode they feel like they are above normal things and do great feats (No, you can't fly, and we wont let you on the roof to prove it. Or for the non-bipolar 18 year olds, you're not musashi reincarnated, how about a round of jigeiko with the sensei to check). By the time they really hit psychotic they're seeing and hearing thing--it's way beyond normal, and you know they need help.

The only psychotic things I've seen came from an extreme manic swing with paranoia. The paranoia just ramped it up fast. They're up and super-powered and you are denying them. You want them to take medicine. Since medication stops their powers-it's wrong, it hurts them, and you're evil for wanting to hurt them, and you're got sensors hidden in the rooms to make sure of it, and you'll kill me if I don't, I must fight back to live.. For FREEDOM!!!!! At which point, the family calls for help... (that wasn't a fun day)

In the cases I've dealt with the brain is broken, and it simply loses touch with reality in order to protect the person from something they can't deal with. 99% of the time you'd never have a clue, and in those 1% you just figure the person is full of themself.


So, as an experienced observer, I don't see any difference between the mentally-ill and normal people. The ill are very much normal when they're doing well, and a repressed normal when on medication. Yeah, the side-effects stink, but it's way better than other option.

[Evoryboypoto]

Since you're done with Chikara, are you still involved in Iaido? Have you thought about trying kendo?

After the footwork days, it gets rather fast paced and physically demanding. Do find that physically demanding and exhausting things also drain you mentally and make things more difficult?

[Galinastva]

There are different kinds of mental illness. Any illness that has violent behavior (against others or oneself) would not be a good match with iaito and maybe kendo. This would also include taking on a different personality that is known to be violent. Kendo is a very physically aggresive martial art. What I would consider to be violent is someone who attacks and hits their opponent in a manner as to purposely inflict harm. It would include hitting areas that do not have armor; executing improper waza like baseball bat swinging and following though; continued attacking while exercise is called to a halt during a practice; using fist, feet or other body parts to attack the opponent; pulling out iaito during kendo sparring; purposely hitting opponent with bokken during kata; and verbal outbursts that are not kiai like "I'm going to kill you".

[inofindy]

I am currently practicing Akitoho Iaido. I have a good re-pore with it.

I would like to try Kendo but only after my mental fitness is well enough to take learning two art's at once without it feeling stressful. (That knowing limitations thing.)

I would like to know the two because I am a kenjistu fan and I think that art is a combination of the two. Iado and Kendo combined will supplement this want. At least it helps.

As for Chikara, I'm being silly, but I'm not done with it. I'm pretty sure I'm not when I stick myself out to help out in their situation. When Chikara gets on it's feet, I'd like to attend there also if I can. I'm probably dreaming, but it only had a sour instructor and eventually took action on the matter. Chikara has helped many Minnesota students and instructors of other ryu's for Tameshiguri, Judo, Kendo, and Akido.

As for faced paced, I know what you mean. My experience is, if it's too fast my thoughts short circuit and I can't do a thing. Being comfortable in your environment and lots of practice at home helps a lot.

It took a while to be comfortable with my current Sensei. My symptom of freezing and cursing out of it was not being too hard on myself. Correcting with traditional push ups, a heavy fast activity, made it worse. It means I am overwhelmed, I need to meditate and slow down. The opposite of 'normal' people correction perhaps but it works.

Now, I can feel and stop the freeze on the fly and keep to my fast paced task without anxiety. I no longer need to break to meditate. It took me six months to achieve that feat and I'm proud of it.

Thanks for the comment and question,
Danette

Unfortunately this is my last post for the day, I am out of time. I will be available to answer more questions tomorrow. Till then, take care.

[panholio]

"I'm going to kill you". Hey! That's my favorite kiai!

[nizcreare]

Hi Danette

What is the nature of your illness, how severe is it and how long have you been suffering...? The reason that I ask is that the NAMI site covers a number of illnesses such as Bipolar Disorder, Depression, Schizophrenia and others.

Thanks for starting this very interesting thread...!

[joulseenjoync]

From her post starting this thread ...

Danette
Age 36
Location Twin Cities Metro Area
Time in swordsmanship: 3 years and counting
Training: Kenjitsu and Iaido
Age of psychosis: 33 years
Hospitalization psych ward stay: 14 days
Diagnosis: Bipolar disorder with psychotic tendancy

[Unoloknovagog]

I've often thought that Kendo would be ideal for some of the PTSD folks.

One of the first things I noticed after going into bogu.. and one of the cool things I enjoy about Kendo.. is that it is the only time in civilian life that I have experienced in which you are in a confrontational situation with an armed opponent and the whole point is to RELAX. That's just way off in left field 180 degrees from the world outside the dojo.

It provides not only a forum in the dojo to experience those things again in a relatively safe and structured environment but also extends a system of thought and action to take with you outside the dojo that phyco drugs or discussion groups can't hope to match.

[lh88gFzI]

From her post starting this thread ...

Oops... apologies for missing this...

Thanks for pointing it out PGSmith...!

[qwerty1]

I think mental illness in swordsmanship is a topic that is well earned and should be addressed in a forum such as this.

I am mentally ill, I am a sword student. To all sword students out there, I hope this thread is informative and supportive and builds confidence to our desire to train in the art.

I am willing to answer sincere questions about mental illness and it's relationship to swordsmanship. I find swordsmanship (and my doctors find swordsmanship) beneficial to help keep this disability under control. I practice and train because I love it. Just like the rest of us.

Feel free to make comments, experiences, and opinions, that's what a forum's for too. But my apologies, I will only respond to questions a couple of times a day until this thread's curiosity is answered. Answering questions is easier for me.

There has to be questions. Lots of them because the person you are training with may be mentally ill and be and look 'normal'. Then there are people who may be normal and act insane how do you tell the difference? 3% of the population is according to NAMI (US based National Alliance for the Mentally Ill). Odds are, you know one of us in your routine life.

Sincerely,
Danette
Age 36
Location Twin Cities Metro Area
Time in swordsmanship: 3 years and counting
Training: Kenjitsu and Iaido
Age of psychosis: 33 years
Hospitalization psych ward stay: 14 days
Diagnosis: Bipolar disorder with psychotic tendancy

Hi, can i ask is Bipolar a dangerous condition?

I know my boyfriends ex was bipolar and he has a helluva life with her.

Just curious

[MannyLopez]

It depends on the severity of the illness and how long untreated.

The number one danger is those that suffer untreated depression (one aspect of bipolar) is suicide. Bipolar kills but not in the media sensationalized way. Suicide kills people often because there's not enough awareness of dialing 911 regardless of stigma that the person is in control of themselves.

Next danger is psychosis due to mania. An unconscious mind takes complete control of the drivers seat one can be partially aware or not aware at all. It's again not so much in the media sensationalized way, but the outrageous behavior gets noticed and sometimes a person gets killed by authorities. (Like the recent slaying of a bipolar by US Air Marshals.) Or just by driving in the condition, etc.

It can get so far as catatonic (no unconscious or conscious mind at all) but that's rare nowadays with medical treatment. Again dialing 911 for an ambulance for outrageous literally insane psychotic behavior. An ambulance will come far before any laws are broken.

The real danger to psychosis is brain damage. I would cut off my left hand to get my memory and concentration back. Had the illness been caught earlier, even 24 hours, I would have not suffered so.

As far as dangerous to other people, only homicidal people are like that.

And wild rides. Again every person is different, and personality and support plays a large roll in it. Those who don't have a support system are very likely to relapse.

Thanks again for the question. I will be checking again tomorrow.
Sincerely,
Danette

[Fertassa]

I'm back after I realized I chose the wrong wording 'brain damage' for the post effects of psychosis. The most correct word is senile. Case in point is my previous response.

All I know is that it's missteps such as this that lost my high tech advisory job I had for 12 years. I never had a detrimental problem with weird memory, concentration, and impulsiveness before my psychosis. I'm still miffed by that loss. I would have been able to keep some or all of my previous abilities had I been diagnosed and treated earlier. Some are just plain medication side effects.

I can't say enough credit swordsmanship has helped me. Enough to where I can feel I can step out on a forum and actually be a little of my 'old' self again. I owe a lot of credit to my current Sensei and the years of support from the patrons of the dojos I've attended.

- Danette

[N95FzmMw]

Our dojo has one teenager who is receiving treatment for ADHD. While not a disorder on the scale of bi-polar psychosis, a severe lack of attention span coupled with hyper-activity can be debilitating nonetheless. Before practice begins this boy is sometimes a bundle of nervous energy, wandering eyes lingering nowhere for more than a couple seconds and speech punctuated with syllables rattled off faster than most of us can comprehend. It is remarkable how this person seems to focus while in practice, though. He has, in fact, become quite adept in coordinating his body and mind during exercises and seems to genuinely enjoy the practices, even those that are quite rigorous and require sustained effort - not an easy task for an ADHD sufferer. He seems to be calmer than he is otherwise. As he starts in bogu soon, we hope for his continued progress in practices. We're not sure whether to credit the effects of his medication or the kendo. Maybe the former allows the latter to help. Whichever it is, his enthusiasm is rewarding.

[infinkPoode]

ADHD is a very subjective problem. I agree that some people definitely have it, but others use the label as an easy way out of the "sit down, shut up, and focus on the task at hand" mentality.

ADHD is also a very selective ailment. What I mean is that I have seen students of mine who I agree are clearly ADHD and who have severe issues focusing in class, but put them in a different setting, like a shop class or club or sport team, and all signs of ADHD completely disappear. When an ADHD sufferer clearly has an interest in something they can almost magically regain all powers of focus and attention. It's when they aren't interested that the random problems arise. It is quite an interesting problem. Just because someone has ADHD doesn't mean they have no faculties of attention and calm. It's in there somewhere, but when they have or when they choose to use their focus or lose it is the interesting thing to study, in my opinion. I wouldn't worry about an ADHD person at all in kendo because they would either be totally committed or probably quit at a very early stage.