[7kitthuptarill]

Interesting and well-thought reply johnkichu. A couple of things I disagree with however.

Firstly I see the IKF's inclusion into the GAISF as a pre-emptive move to *prevent* a rival world kendo organisation achieving membership of IOC. It is a move designed to protect kendo from Olympic inclusion, not pave the way for it. In Australia it is a help that the IKF (is it really now "FIK"? German kendoka will never live that one down!) is now a member of GAISF, as that now makes it possible for Australian Kendo Renmei senior members to achieve gov't accreditation as coaches.

Secondly, your assertion that all that would be required to protect kendo from the problems beset by other Olympic sports is good leadership is naive. I think the sudden effects of large amounts of money being at stake would overwhelm even the most enlightened and effective leadership. I'm not talking rule changes, which perhaps can be avoided, but things like drug use, would definitely increase. Also shinpan decisions would be placed under increased scrutiny, perhaps leading to use of video checking of decisions. This could in term put pressure on rules to make yuko datotsu "simpler". Also being an Olympic sport would attract pressure from TV networks for more "viewer-friendly" shiai. The tension here is between the Japanese approach of "sensei is always right" vs the American "customer is always right." IOW the viewing audience would have to be indulged as being the ultimate authority, because their numbers deliver advertisers to networks, who pay the screening rights to IOC, who dictate to individual sports how and when they will be seen. The IKF would now be at the bottom of a very hungry food chain, so to speak.

Let me tell a little story to illustrate what I mean: last year at the IKF Asian Zone Shinpan Seminar in Korea, an inordinate amount of time was spent grilling the Japanese 8-dans present on what should be done when players and/or managers physically attack shinpan. The Japanese were visibly bemused by what seemed to be an excessive interest in what was for them a hypothetical situation. One of the Taiwanese delegates turned to me and asked if we had this situation in Australia. I replied of course not. He then said it is not uncommon in Taiwan and Korea, at competitions where substantial amounts of prizemoney are offered at large municipal taikai, for players and team managers to physically threaten and abuse shinpan when a decision goes against them and they disagree with it.

And you don't have to become an Olympic sport for these money-related problems to occur. Just look at the dishonourable state of Italian soccer, or the recent "winner" of the Tour de France.

b

[plaiskegizils]

I agree. IMO, too, it would be a shame if kendo became more and more about money. IMO the most precious thing you can win in shiai is knowledge; it is the fact that you learned something. It would change the spirit of the kendoka if shiai was about money... I think that then many kendoka would fight rather respectlessly like in the usual soccer game. Just think of agression instead of respect, striving for medals instead of striving for improvement... Just think of Zidan in the soccer world championships this year...

[cindygirl]

Ah, and johnkichu: Thank you, the info is very helpful!

[texprofi]

Ben,

Good points - the competing WKA organization is filled with politically minded Koreans who I believe are incredibly short sighted, and yes, the IKF did have them in mind when they made this move. As a side note, some of the guys in WKA don't even practice kendo/kumdo - they are the remnants of the old guard who are lobbied to have tae kwon do included in the Olymics. The Korean Kumdo Associatio (KKA), which is a part of IKF, is definitely opposed to the WKA.

Having said that, I understand that the GAISF meeting in Seoul this past spring ended with IKF deciding to go for inclusion in the Universiad Games - this is basically the college olympics. Perhaps this is a move to ensure amature competition and keep money out of it. But once in GAISF, I think it will be hard to prevent movement toward Olympics, and IKF must see that.

This leads to an interesting question - at some point in the future, are we going to see a splinter group emerge from the kendo community some changes will be hard to swallow for certain factions within the IKF?

Hmmm... doping and kendo. Ineresting visuals here...

[AnthonyKing]

Let me tell a little story to illustrate what I mean: last year at the IKF Asian Zone Shinpan Seminar in Korea, an inordinate amount of time was spent grilling the Japanese 8-dans present on what should be done when players and/or managers physically attack shinpan. The Japanese were visibly bemused by what seemed to be an excessive interest in what was for them a hypothetical situation. One of the Taiwanese delegates turned to me and asked if we had this situation in Australia. I replied of course not. He then said it is not uncommon in Taiwan and Korea, at competitions where substantial amounts of prizemoney are offered at large municipal taikai, for players and team managers to physically threaten and abuse shinpan when a decision goes against them and they disagree with it.

The local governing bodies need to deal with these guys harshly. Perhaps banning them from competition for a year or so. This is a martial art, after all, and requires discipline. I'm surprised that this is going on in Korea - must be at a very local level - I certainly don't see it at large, national tournaments - but I'll have to check into it further.

If the local governing bodies won't/can't deal with them, then IKF needs to step in and take action(s) against the countries involved. Although, I can't imagine the uproar it will cause if the IKF, let's say, bans Korea from international competition! However, if that's what it will take, then IKF needs to bite the bullet and do it - just my opinion.

[gugqgbyzlp]

...But once in GAISF, I think it will be hard to prevent movement toward Olympics, and IKF must see that...

I don't see how this follows. The GAISF and the IOC are separate orgs with separate entrance requirements. Membership of one does not lead to membership of the other.

There are sports who are fighting to get into the Olympics and sports that are fighting to stay in the Olympics. No-one's going to invite the IKF if they're not keen. Besides, there are much better things to do with IKF money than pay the requisite bribes to IOC committee members...

b

[styhorporry]

I don't see how this follows. The GAISF and the IOC are separate orgs with separate entrance requirements. Membership of one does not lead to membership of the other.

Two organizations are independent, you're correct, but I think you need to belong to GAISF before you're even considered for inclusion in the Olympics. First step has been taken, and it will be interesting to see where this leads. Things might really heat up especially if the Koreans win the WKC this December.

[rengerts]

I think the 'ownership' of kendo does and will - for at least the foreseable future - rest in the hands of the ZNKR and the Japanese. If Korea win the WKC then thats great... but the majority of the world will not suddenly change their allegience to Korea and start looking for Olympic inclusion.

Inclusion in the Universiade Games says nothing about the Olympics for a few simple reasons. I will just outline the main one: a university level shiai would fit nicely into the Japanese paradigm of youth-kendo (primary-university level) with shiai at its core. Living and practising in Japan its obvious to me why the Universiade games are attractive to the ZNKR (and thus FIK), which is as obvious to me as to why the Olympics are unnatractive.

You also have to realise that the majority of Japanese Kendoka are only dimly aware of the existence of the WKC. Ive never had an 'olympic kendo' discussion with anyone over here. I suspect that the WKC is a much bigger thing for Korea, who have much more pride at stake. (I suspect if Japan lost to Korea there would be no tantrums and smashing of medals a la the last WKC)

As for anthems -- they stopped doing them at international kendo competion (like WKC and EuroKC) a few years ago because the playing of the national anthems was against the internationalisation of kendo. Japanese flags are usually hanging at shiai here in Japan, and often there is singing of the national anthem... though very few people sing. I guess that this is more to do with the Ministry of Education rather than anything else.

[anxpuna]

aside from all this anthems milarkey
he gives all this information, and i know its just a tinternet article.
but what are the sources hes taken stuff from?

[Gastonleruanich]

BTW - I am not advocating inclusion of kendo in the Olympic games. Far from it, I am against it, as is almost all Korean kumdo-in's I speak with. I am just an interested observer, watching this play out and speculating.

I'm not sure how big WKC is in Korea, outside the kumdo community. We tend to have a warped sense of this, since we are a "captive audience," as the old saying goes. Maybe someone who is living in Korea can answer. Kumdo tournaments weren't even televised on a regular basis until fairly recently, and they certainly didn't have any kumdo-only facilities when I was living there. When Koreans swept the Korea-Japan University competition recently, first time ever in its 30+ year history, it hardly got a mention in the local news media.

[gogFloark]

aside from all this anthems milarkey
he gives all this information, and i know its just a tinternet article.
but what are the sources hes taken stuff from?

The URL for the original article should tell you where it's from.

For the rest:

The IKF rule is from, where else, the IKF website (or maybe the AJKFwebsite - can't remember now - check both). The rest I got from our dojang's website (kumdo.com), and I believe the same stuff is also at the KKA website (kumdo.org), but in Korean, so you'll have to be able to read Korean there. But this is just all an Asian version of motherhood and apple pies.

Are we going to start enforcing references & citation rules now? That's fine, if eveyrone does it.

[HakSpeame]

You also have to realise that the majority of Japanese Kendoka are only dimly aware of the existence of the WKC. .

I wonder why then Eiga cried like a bay after barely winning 2003 WKC?

[Siliespiriulk]

I wonder why then Eiga cried like a bay after barely winning 2003 WKC?

Relief?

(plus Japanese men cry easily...)

The WKC is an almost unknown quantity here in Japan and thats IN kendo circles ... if you dont believe me then thats fine. The fact that there are barely any non-Japanese people with rank practising here contributes to this.

I competed in the last WKC then (2 weeks later) moved to Japan... in discussion with people the WKC inevitably came up (you have to explain your background) people were like "oh, thats nice. When was it? Who won?"...it was a big eye-opener for me.

However, competing in a WKC (no matter how crap I am) can open up doors to you... since Japan is a status-driven society.

As John said, we are a 'captive audience.' For non-Japanese kendoka the WKC is probably the top shiai we can compete in. For Japanese kendoka, it isnt.

[Inconykic]

Relief?

(plus Japanese men cry easily...)

The WKC is an almost unknown quantity here in Japan and thats IN kendo circles ... if you dont believe me then thats fine. The fact that there are barely any non-Japanese people with rank practising here contributes to this.

I competed in the last WKC then (2 weeks later) moved to Japan... in discussion with people the WKC inevitably came up (you have to explain your background) people were like "oh, thats nice. When was it? Who won?"...it was a big eye-opener for me.

However, competing in a WKC (no matter how crap I am) can open up doors to you... since Japan is a status-driven society.

As John said, we are a 'captive audience.' For non-Japanese kendoka the WKC is probably the top shiai we can compete in. For Japanese kendoka, it isnt.

WKC (as far as I know) isn't that big of a deal in Korea either. I've mentioned WKC several times to Korean masters and visitors from Korea, and they seemed to not care at all. Unlike the people you mentioned, they know about it, but not much. One of the person I talked to even said this, "were they any good?" I think most of the kendokas/kumdoins care more about the local tournaments then any other tournaments.

Korea also has its own big shiais. SBS Kumdo Wang and the University Competitions for example.

[Ervins Dervish]

BTW - I am not advocating inclusion of kendo in the Olympic games. Far from it, I am against it, as is almost all Korean kumdo-in's I speak with. I am just an interested observer, watching this play out and speculating.

I'm not sure how big WKC is in Korea, outside the kumdo community. We tend to have a warped sense of this, since we are a "captive audience," as the old saying goes. Maybe someone who is living in Korea can answer. Kumdo tournaments weren't even televised on a regular basis until fairly recently, and they certainly didn't have any kumdo-only facilities when I was living there. When Koreans swept the Korea-Japan University competition recently, first time ever in its 30+ year history, it hardly got a mention in the local news media.

There's a Korea-Japan University competition!? Dood, more info/videos and what not please. I'm much more interested in high school/university level competition than the WKC.

[paydayus]

There's a Korea-Japan University competition!? Dood, more info/videos and what not please. I'm much more interested in high school/university level competition than the WKC.

Like I said, it hardly got mentioned - I haven't found any videos of it, and the only reason I know is I just happened to see it on the KKA website.

[bomondus]

I wonder why then Eiga cried like a bay after barely winning 2003 WKC?

Yes, definitely relief. I can't imagine being the person responsible for the first loss ever by the Japanese team. A great career, with that kind of a footnote - wow!

By the way, Kim Kyung Nam and Eiga are good friends. It's a shame they had to meet in the deciding match.

[L8fGLM4d]

I suspect if Japan lost to Korea there would be no tantrums and smashing of medals a la the last WKC

I know the Koreans were upset by the last point by Eiga - they felt that it was rather weak and not a scorable tsuki, but did they really throw the medals around and make a big deal over it?

[pirinosa]

I also don't have a problem with the Japanese flags and anthem because it is after all a Japanese martial art.

By that reasoning, the American flag and anthem should be flown and played at baseball and basketball games around the world. Danger, Will Robinson! Does not compute.

I think it makes more sense (from a philosophical standpoint) to play the Japanese anthem and fly the Japanese flag to honor the Japanese sensei in attendance.

[Vznvtthq]

I think, and my memory ain't what it used to be, in our neck of the woods we pretty much don't do the Japanese flag and anthem anymore, only U.S. (unless there is some pressing reason for the Japanese thing too, like tons of players from Japan or the like)

While the US anthem should not be played at baseball games around the world they are required to play John Fogerty's Centerfield.