[Marlboro-oroblraM]

Interesting article.

http://www.strangehorizons.com/2002/..._fencing.shtml

[FrereeDoulley]

i don't like the fact that taiwan was left out of being mentioned as one of the top competitors in the WKC.

[SonicPs]

Interesting article.

http://www.strangehorizons.com/2002/..._fencing.shtml

Very interesting article....

[johnbeller]

Well, Taiwan hasn't tried to make their own style of Kendo, now have they.

[PersonalLoansBank]

Well, Taiwan hasn't tried to make their own style of Kendo, now have they.

why would they? they already have ton of sword arts.

pete

[dXI9XFOA]

very interesting indeed

thanks

[girlsround]

i don't like the fact that taiwan was left out of being mentioned as one of the top competitors in the WKC.

You know, I was scanning the list of winners of past WKC matches, and I was quite surprised that Koreans didn't really take to kumdo/kendo until the late 70s/early 80s. I know they started to really invest in it in the 90's.

Anyway, as the art becomes more widespread, I hope such silliness with national anthems and flags not being shown disappears.

Kumdo as a distinct style of kendo is an intriguing concept, isn't it?

[Aozozbag]

You know, I was scanning the list of winners of past WKC matches, and I was quite surprised that Koreans didn't really take to kumdo/kendo until the late 70s/early 80s. I know they started to really invest in it in the 90's.

Anyway, as the art becomes more widespread, I hope such silliness with national anthems and flags not being shown disappears.

Kumdo as a distinct style of kendo is an intriguing concept, isn't it?

To be honest, I don't see a nice way of dealing w/ national anthems and flags. When I first started kendo in CA in 1995, I remember there only being the US flag. I don't recall a Japan flag and I definitely don't recall the Japanese anthem being played. In the tournaments I've seen in the Midwest lately, I now see Canadian and Japanese flags and their anthems being played. Does including the Korean flag and anthem resolve the issue? What do the flags and anthems really represent? I think they have different levels of importance to different people, and my opinion is at a local/national level the local nation's flag and anthem is sufficient. At the international level, we should imitate the Olympics or follow what the rules for General Association of International Sports Federations (GAISF) are. Then again, I don't particularly look forward to the ridiculous introductory pageant of the Olympics and playing every country's anthem.

I wonder how the high level korean instructors view kendo and how they view the dynamic and energetic versions commonly seen from korean dojangs nowadays. Coming from a Japanese training background and starting at college, my view has been that the dynamic version is a product of not being overtly strict and restrictive in forms, extra emphasis on physical fitness, and allowing the players to develop and adapt to what they think works. Rather than emphasize points that are almost philosophical in nature, the player experiments with what works best for them. This dynamic form is also what you see a lot in Japanese high school and college kendoka, where natural ability and winning tournaments take priority. Even many of the younger players in US have similar styles. But then you see the steady style of the older and higher ranking senseis kicking the butts of these young practictioners. And some of these same kendoka eventually develop into the steady, metaphysical style of the high ranking senseis. You can argue that the steadier style is heavily influenced by physical capability, experience, and judging criterias, but I think most of us would agree that there are kernels of truth in ideas like seme, tame, controling the center, and other ideals. I would be extremely interested in hearing about how the older generation of Korean instructors perform their kendo and how they view the more dynamic version. My guess, which could easily be wrong , is there are more similarities to the steady metaphysical style than the dynamic style.

The article was very well written, both informative and polite. The only thing that bothered me was saying the WKC happened every 4 years.

[chelviweeme]

To be honest, I don't see a nice way of dealing w/ national anthems and flags. When I first started kendo in CA in 1995, I remember there only being the US flag. I don't recall a Japan flag and I definitely don't recall the Japanese anthem being played. In the tournaments I've seen in the Midwest lately, I now see Canadian and Japanese flags and their anthems being played. Does including the Korean flag and anthem resolve the issue? What do the flags and anthems really represent? I think they have different levels of importance to different people, and my opinion is at a local/national level the local nation's flag and anthem is sufficient. At the international level, we should imitate the Olympics or follow what the rules for General Association of International Sports Federations (GAISF) are. Then again, I don't particularly look forward to the ridiculous introductory pageant of the Olympics and playing every country's anthem.

If the matches are not meant to be national in nature (i.e., national teams), I don’t think they should bother with the national anthems & flags. The point here is that once they decided to do it, they should have included everyone. BTW – competitors from Hwa Rang Kwan who were there didn’t really care about this at all. They more or less laughed it off as the sponsors not being well prepared.

I wonder how the high level korean instructors view kendo and how they view the dynamic and energetic versions commonly seen from korean dojangs nowadays. Coming from a Japanese training background and starting at college, my view has been that the dynamic version is a product of not being overtly strict and restrictive in forms, extra emphasis on physical fitness, and allowing the players to develop and adapt to what they think works. Rather than emphasize points that are almost philosophical in nature, the player experiments with what works best for them. This dynamic form is also what you see a lot in Japanese high school and college kendoka, where natural ability and winning tournaments take priority. Even many of the younger players in US have similar styles. But then you see the steady style of the older and higher ranking senseis kicking the butts of these young practictioners. And some of these same kendoka eventually develop into the steady, metaphysical style of the high ranking senseis. You can argue that the steadier style is heavily influenced by physical capability, experience, and judging criterias, but I think most of us would agree that there are kernels of truth in ideas like seme, tame, controling the center, and other ideals. I would be extremely interested in hearing about how the older generation of Korean instructors perform their kendo and how they view the more dynamic version. My guess, which could easily be wrong , is there are more similarities to the steady metaphysical style than the dynamic style.

I would tend to agree with you. Dynamic style does not preclude the mental/philosophical aspect of kumdo – I think they go hand in hand. Physical & aggressive energy which is not controlled and focused in a disciplined manner is just wasted energy. Our master (he is quoted in the article) is always talking about the mental and philosophical aspects of the art, and my impression is that most Korean instructors are like that. And they do care about and pay a lot of attention to proper forms – you’d be hard put to score any points without proper form and attitude. This may be a case of different routes being taken to the same end point, as you point out.

The article was very well written, both informative and polite. The only thing that bothered me was saying the WKC happened every 4 years.

Yea – I noticed that. He also says keup is kiai. Keup is the non-black belt grade (numbers decreasing as you advance), Kiai in Korean is kiahp. If it can be written in Chinese, it’s probably a Chinese word with local pronunciations (which is usually very similar between Korea and Japan). But the author clear did his research.

[XqrkN4a0]

How often does the the WKC happen, then?

Very nice article. Thank you, johnkichu!

[CathBraunn]

Ah, and can someone tell me what makes a yuko datotsu in kumdo? I somewhere read that you only need to hit, but I don't believe this is right.

[bxxasxxa]

I don’t think they should bother with the national anthems & flags. The point here is that once they decided to do it, they should have included everyone.

The competitors from the kumdo dojangs are Americans, are they not? The American anthem is for them, like it is for every other American. They're not visiting from another country, like the Canadians do. It's common practice to play both anthems at hockey games where there are Canadian and American teams.

The Japanese flag is because it's a Japanese martial art. Do you argue the Koreans should get their flag too just because they're really good at it?

[johnbeller]

How often does the the WKC happen, then?

Once every 3 years.

[Nopayof]

This is what the IKF regulation says:

Article 17. YUKO DATOTSU is defined as the accurate striking or thrusting made to DATOTSU spots with the SHINAI at its DATOTSU-BU edge with KIAI (spirit and positive voice), the right posture, and ZANSHIN (mental and physical alertness against the opponents attack; positive follow through of attack and strike).

I’d say it’s the same in kumdo. What we are taught is very similar:

The four main target areas, each worth one point, are struck with its to the head (Muri), the torso (waist, Heori), the wrist (Sonmok), or a thrust to the throat (Chirum). The competitors call their attempted strikes in a strong voice (Kihap), and blows must be delivered with the upper third of the bamboo sword (Jukdo). Although it may appear that many hits are finding their targets in the course of the match, a successful stroke must be coordinated with correct footwork, powerful Kihap, good posture and strong follow through.

Personally, I don’t see material difference between kendo and kumdo, so what you are learning probably applies to kumdo 99.9% of the time.

FYI – some of the other things that kumdo teaches – again very similar to kendo:

Without the proper attitude and reverence to the art form, one opening for the opponent is all it takes to lose. Although combination of strength and speed plays a crucial role, one cannot master the art of Kum Do without the pure and unadulterated state of mind and soul.

The spiritual maturity, inner strength, calmness of the soul, and pure heart combined with strength and speed--that is the "essence" of Kum Do. A duality of one's identity that unites into one.

The purpose of practicing Kumdo is:

To mold the mind and body,
To cultivate a vigorous spirit,
And through correct and rigid training,
To strive for improvement of Kumdo,
To hold in esteem of courtesy and honor,
To treat others with sincerity,
And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.

Thus, one will be able:

To be a patriot of righteousness in the highest form,
To respect and honor one's parents,
To trust, honor and loyal to friends,
To perceive and never retreat from challenges,
And to respect all lives and living things.

[Arrecteve]

The competitors from the kumdo dojangs are Americans, are they not? The American anthem is for them, like it is for every other American. They're not visiting from another country, like the Canadians do. It's common practice to play both anthems at hockey games where there are Canadian and American teams.

The Japanese flag is because it's a Japanese martial art. Do you argue the Koreans should get their flag too just because they're really good at it?

I wasn't there, but almost all the competitors from Hwa Rang Kwan were Korean-Americans. Some are US citizens, some aren't.

My point is why play national anthems and hang flags - this wasn't meant to be a nation-to-nation competition. And if you're going to do it, I'd much prefer to see school banners at this level, instead of national flags. Do they typically hang Japanese flags and play Japanese national anthems in all kendo tournaments?

[eropiereetuekm]

By the way, neOr, I should have mentioned, Korean Kumdo Association is a memeber of IKF, so for all practical purposes, kendo = kumdo.

[RG3rGWcA]

My point is why play national anthems and hang flags - this wasn't meant to be a nation-to-nation competition. And if you're going to do it, I'd much prefer to see school banners at this level, instead of national flags. Do they typically hang Japanese flags and play Japanese national anthems in all kendo tournaments?

I don't have a problem with the US and Canadian anthems played. Despite the casual attitude between us, we are seperate countries and so if you have significant numbers attending and you play the US anthem, it's only good form to play the Canadian anthem too.

I also don't have a problem with the Japanese flags and anthem because it is after all a Japanese martial art. I don't demand a Lithuanian anthem or flag just because that's my ancestry. The Korean-Americans should be no different, but because there's all this awful history they get their shirts in a knot over this stuff.

As far as whether it's typical to play anthems and hang flags - I've seen it both ways. We don't do it at the little tournament we run.

[lierro]

The Korean-Americans should be no different, but because there's all this awful history they get their shirts in a knot over this stuff.

Actually, as I pointed it out, they didn't care about this too much. In fact, you're making a bigger deal about this than they did.

[flower-buy]

Your actual quote was:

They more or less laughed it off as the sponsors not being well prepared. Which implies that they felt it was their right, and the sponsors dropped the ball. I'm just saying that as Americans, the US anthem should be fine if they play any anthem at all. Kendo is not a Japanese/Korean invention, it is Japanese. I hope very passionately that it remains Japanese, and that the people hoping to internationalise it and Olympisize it and wrest control of it from the Japanese fail.

I know I'm heading off on a tangent here from a relatively small issue, but it's just a thing that happened to twig my attention today.

[antilt]

Neil,

Well, I understand you feel that way, but I don’t think in terms of someone “owning” kendo. With the IKF (now called FIK as there is already an IKF in GAISF) joining GAISF, and I heard they were very relieved to have been admitted into the organization, and asking specifically to help widen membership, the stage is set for kendo/kumdo being considered for inclusion in the Olympic.

I think the IKF decided the continuing international popularity of kendo is a good thing, and rather than fight it, they are proactively leading the charge. (by the way, my understanding is that one issue they really want to fight is electronic scoring - like in fencing; I am completely with the IKF in this – electronic scoring will ruin kumdo). Is kendo being in the Olympics a bad thing? I can’t tell right now, but with the right leadership from IKF, I think it could be a good thing. We all saw what happened to judo and tae kwon do, and I hope/think IKF knows what to avoid.

I have to chuckle when I read posts here from folks who worry that the kendo community is getting too large and not remaining pure, etc… If people who practiced kendo when these guys were thinking about starting felt this way, where would they be?

Whether we like it or not, kendo has evolved, is evolving, and will continue to evolve. There are techniques which are no longer taught or used, and new styles and techniques will be introduced – and Japan may not be the source of changes in the future. I just read a fascinating analysis (done by the Koreans) of the last All Japan Kendo competition – they were scouting out the Japanese national team members. They did a statistical analysis of what got points, what didn’t, and so on, and the changes in “preferred” tactics over the years are quite apparent and interesting. These changes are happening without any central coordination - it is evolving. Kumdo is also undergoing changes in Korea, in parallel with changes going on in Japan.

There are a lot of exchanges between the two countries, and although we here at the forum are always dickering about Japan/Korea, kendo/kumdo debates, AJKF and KKA work very closely together. Politics aside, I don’t think the people who matter in both organizations get too wrapped around the axle over who did what or who “owns” this or that.