[mikeydesignzinc]

If we breakdown Kendo today for what it is and what it offers in terms of actual sword combat this is what I see:

1. Rigorous workout that conditions the body and mind for multiple, back to back engagements.
2. Sword basics and advanced techniques.
3. Full speed/full contact sparring. Not only do we learn how to attack at full speed, we also learn how to react to someone coming at us at full speed with full intent.

I agree that kendo is a good physical workout, and that it also trains the mind well in reacting to constantly changing maai and intent of an opponent, however I disagree that it teaches one about full contact sparring.

What you say about sword basics and advanced techniques is also a little strange. Do you really think its possible to apply what you learn with shinai to a real sword only through practicing kendo?

Kendo has very little relationship to combat with real swords. Then again it was never intended to teach this as far as I understand it. Even most koryu kenjutsu could be seen as primarily a method of self improvement rather than 'combat systems'. Hence the phrase 'heiho wa heiho nari'.

[mdUzAMbG]

I agree that kendo is a good physical workout, and that it also trains the mind well in reacting to constantly changing maai and intent of an opponent, however I disagree that it teaches one about full contact sparring.

What you say about sword basics and advanced techniques is also a little strange. Do you really think its possible to apply what you learn with shinai to a real sword only through practicing kendo?

Kendo has very little relationship to combat with real swords. Then again it was never intended to teach this as far as I understand it. Even most koryu kenjutsu could be seen as primarily a method of self improvement rather than 'combat systems'. Hence the phrase 'heiho wa heiho nari'.

I think Kendo is full contact sparring, what else could it be? Bogu and shinai were developed so kenshi could spar at full contact/speed with out killing or maiming each other.

As far as advanced technique, the multitude of waza were developed for real swords. If one could master just a handfull of them, you wouldn't even need a real sword to defeat someone with one.

I'm not saying that practicing ONLY Kendo would make you a combat ready, skilled swordsman, of course supplimenting some of the other arts, like Iaido would help, but if I only could choose one it would be Kendo.

[Paybeskf]

I agree that kendo is a good physical workout, and that it also trains the mind well in reacting to constantly changing maai and intent of an opponent, however I disagree that it teaches one about full contact sparring... Kendo has very little relationship to combat with real swords. Then again it was never intended to teach this as far as I understand it. Even most koryu kenjutsu could be seen as primarily a method of self improvement rather than 'combat systems'. Hence the phrase 'heiho wa heiho nari'.

Interesting point, Alex! I would challenge you on the latter - if I knew more about koryu, which I don't.

Now, why would you say the former about shinai techniques? My thinking is that shinai encourage the user to strike rather than cut, but surely this is just a matter of interpretation? I mean a person can and should train kendo knowing the difference in his mind between a cut and a strike. Certainly, too, some cuts with the sword stop at a certain point instead of continuing all the way through. Example: a cut to kote would stop after severing the wrist, unlike a kesa-giri, a cut all the way through the torso. A cut to the top of the head might stop at the chin as a men cut is supposed to, as opposed to a kiri-otoshi (hope I'm using that right, my knowledge of iai is much less than that of kendo - kiri otoshi is a cut from head to groin, innit?)

Too, there are plenty of examples of cuts that stop ala kendo cuts in the kendo no kata, which give us evidence - and practice - of how cuts with katana are made. Your thoughts?

[enlinnyGoob]

Hi!

My point about shinai is that they are very different tools to shinken. Apart from the weight and balance differences, there is also a great deal of difference in controlling hasuji. That's as far as it goes really.

Having said this, cutting something is not very difficult. It doesn't require a great deal of force to cut through beach mats for example. Cutting through a wrist or into a head? Not sure, not done that before

Of the koryu I have practiced, most of the cutting puts in quite a lot of power, driving with the hips - uchidachi often cuts right down to the floor before recieving the technique.

I think kendo no kata is close to this. I used to think that kendo no kata doesn't have the intensity or intent of the koryu I have seen, but then I saw a couple of hachidan kendoka doing it and changed my mind somewhat.

Perhaps kendo at the time of its conception did allow kenshi to have full contact bouts, but I don't think that's the case now. Footwork and waza must have been slowly transformed into what is most effective in bogu, on a wooden floor, and using shinai to score effective strikes within a set of rules. We can see amazingly fast and precise kendo, full of intent, but if you put those practitioners outside, with no bogu and holding shinken I wonder what kind of combat would develop?

My comment about koryu as self improvement comes from the fact that most extant systems of koryu were codified in the late Sengoku Jidai or the Edo period. The techniques passed in koryu schools are those which were found to be most effective in combat, however learning how to hit someone with a sword seems only to be the beginning of the study. Many koryu seem to seek to instill a sense of morality and virtue as well as teaching combat teachniques. I'm not saying the techniques don't work, I'm just trying to say that learning to kill someone with a sword is necessarily the point of studying.



I'm a bit unclear when I write, sorry

[6ZCo3xuK]

Not all cuts in koryu were intended to cleave the opponent in two. There were many that were meant as a slash, a distraction, or just enough to sever major arteries. Power is certainly important when using a real sword against a committed opponent, but lightness, relaxation and precision are also important.

I think at the beginning of their respective budo careers, modern day kendoka and modern day koryu kenshi are starting from opposite ends of a swordsmanship continuum: perhaps speed and adaptiveness on the one hand and power and combat effectiveness on the other(?). But as both develop in skill, they move closer to being able to achieve overall effectiveness that means their skill in similar. IOW a senior exponent of kendo would not be completely at sea in a koryu context, and a senior koryu exponent would be able to hold their own in a kendo setting.

What do others think?

b

[Adollobdeb]

Like what? I'm not challenging you, and I may even agree with you, but can you expand on this point? Name the foolhardy and possibly lethal techniques you had in mind.

In retrospect, I didn't quite make my statement clear enough. What I was elluding to is not the techniques THEMSELVES... rather, the way in which they are delivered. The difference is in the mind. The degree of consequence from our action is radically different in a lethal duel, than in a sport/combat match. When you know that the worst thing that can happen in a match is to lose a bout, you can take non-lethal chances. The fienting to draw your opponent into an exchange, you might employ in a match, does not carry the potential of injury and FINALITY a real duel to the death does. While you can score a point with a non-lethal attack to a valid target (in a kendo match) you might just end up seriously wounded or DEAD, doing so in a real battle situation. Scoring points in a match is a must to win. Some of the choices we make when attacking our opponent, within the context of a fencing match, would possibly get you killed in a real war. I thought that is what many of the fine comments on this thread are also elluding to. Please feel free to challenge this point... However, I take full responcibility for not making my statement pointiently enough in the last post. I should reflect on the old saying, "look before you leap." I can see why you questioned my intent. What I tried to express was, that it would prove foolhardy to fight in a non-lethal manner in a lethal encounter. Taking chances that cause no amputation, open gashes and such. It is certainly not the techniques inherant in the system, rather the choice of application, relative to the consequences. The methods we practice are the pillars of the art. They are are born of historical, battle-proven methods, culled by our Great-grand masters into the lineage we observe today. But when you take the methods into a sporting scenario, we know that there are rules, time restrictions, SAFE weapons, etc... We initiate very different strategies when we know we will still be driving home in our cars, in one piece, than when the real possibility of death is on the other side of the techniques we choose to employ. Thanks for the reply.

Yours in Martial Spirt, Jon Palombi

[Zhgpavye]

So where does "sutemi" fit into all this?

b

[treawittelf]

But kendo doesn't really teach how to cut. Maybe once you are extremely good in kendo, you get some sort of natural sense, but if you've done iaido then you know the huge disparity between how you swing a sword and a shinai. And I think if you did treat a real fight exactly like you would in kendo (not that many people would), it would prove quite fatal. Look at how many hits are taken in disregard because they wouldn't count during shiai. In reality, a blow to the shoulder with a shinken has a fair amount of stopping power. I also doubt the ability to do suriashi and charge in when wearing japanese sandlas on a dirt road, seems impractical. And for those of you who have done tameshigiri, (I haven't, so I may just be sounding like an idiot here) imagine doing the kind of strike taught in kendo to a mat simulating all the matter you'd go through with a straight down men cut. Doesn't seem like it would do much. Now involve armor, which protects against all the areas kendokas are trained to strike. Think about how in kendo you often whip your shinai around to hit the other side, and go and tap kote. Using a shinken would slow you down enough, and when you factor in that you'd have to raise your sword much higher than you would in a tournament in order to do much damage when you connected, and that waza suddenly seems useless (unless your a hachidan, then you can do whatever you want, haha). Kote-men seems a bit strange too, but I could see that being pulled off by someone talented. I seem to rambling... but I think I've brought up a point or two here or there, pardon my inefficiency in doing so.

[chzvacmyye]

Just look at the kendo kata. That's as close to kenjutsu as most of us have access. It bears little resemblance to shiai.

[ViaplyVuple]

we do not fight against multiple opponent at a time because. .. ...

1. when you "do" fight against SEVERAL opponents at once, it is merely a number of "one on one" battles that goes on "simultaneously". That means you still have to deal with one opponent at a time, just one after another. And if it is true what they always say in kendo "if you are able to basics well, you can do good kendo" then what better way to teach the student than to have them start at one on one confrontations first? if you can't have the courage to face one man (or women, or child) than you wont have the balls to face off 2 or more opponents.

2. with the way our foot has to always be, it is not "suitable" to fight several opponents at once on the shiai-jo, if we can freely change our foot positions and not always have to have the right foot in front and have the left heel raised slighly off the ground, then yes, i can see fighting multiple opponents at once.

3. it is no good to fight multiple opponents in kendo, because they all have swords. Mostly everyone will use one sword, and in a real life situation ...yes, even during the period of time where Japan had samurais. if a bunch of people were to attack you, u can bet 4 out of 6 times.. NOT al of them will be coming at you with a sword. So, the strategy becomes a little bit more complicated to fight against several opponents with "different" weapons, such as kusari gama, bo, katana, sai, shurinken and ect.

happy new years, and if you have anything to add, i'd luv to hear it. for discussion sake.

[bunkalapa]

But kendo doesn't really teach how to cut. .

i disagree, not trying to bring a flame war. i just don't agree.

kendo kata is a very watered downed version of what "would" be taught in a kenjutsu school.

[urbalatte]

i disagree, not trying to bring a flame war. i just don't agree.

kendo kata is a very watered downed version of what "would" be taught in a kenjutsu school.

Now, now... nobody can say that another's Art is "watered down"! Name 100 people in your immediate world, that practice the sword? Honestly, do you want people who visit this site to think you are an arrogant jackass?? Stop emphasizing the differences in these traditions. Isn't it easier to see the reflection, than the opposition? For crying out loud! We all practice traditional Japanese swordsmanship! Together, we carry the knowledge into the 21st. century. Still, I honor you for stating you oppinion in an honest manner. Have a good New Year, and may you advance in your training! I sure as Hell am gonna try to make some improvement in my practice.

"Happy New Year!" Jon Palombi

[lakraboob]

Now, now... nobody can say that another's Art is "watered down"!

I am not an expert on kendo history, but isn't that quite true? Kendo kata are not kenjutsu, but derived from it and probably adapted as well.
Just because something is "watered down" (i.e. "not koryu") does not mean it is useless or lack meaning.

[AgindyMinnife]

Now, now... nobody can say that another's Art is "watered down"!

"Happy New Year!" Jon Palombi

Hello Jon,
Welcome to the Kendo World Forum. Hope you like it here as on the E-Budo Forum.
I wholeheartedly agree with your observations on this intricate matter. My personal feeling is that the 10 kata in Kendo are being practiced as just a form and required for a grading. I don't think people would be performing kata if it wasn't obligated at a grading.
Many kamae have lost their original purpose when regarded from a shinai view point. The kamae that are useless in shinai Kendo like gedan, waki, and hasso make sense if Uchidachi and Shidachi both have 1 mtr razors. I have heard high ranking people explain the gedan no kamae while in the 6th kata. They were telling that it is about strong pressure as in physical strength. But that was it. The pressure actually is that from gedan he can twist his blade and slice upwards towards Uchidachi's hands, that's why Uchidachi moves swiftly into hidari jodan.
Now I don't think that it is anyone's intention to water things down but if high ranking respected Kendoka can't explain these matters without looking why it was ever intended, then things can lead their own life/water down.

Furthermore I would like to support the statement that advanced Kendoka (3 years practice or more) can easily switch to learn Kenjutsu because of the ingrained reflexes and the concepts that we learn. This in my opinion is the relationship to sword combat.

Since we can't walk around with 1 mtr razorblades, bring Justice in the world as we see fit we will have to stick to Kendo for the rest of our lives trying to improve from one day to another.
Happy New Year and hope to hear some more learned thoughts in this matter,

[auctionlover]

i disagree, not trying to bring a flame war. i just don't agree.

kendo kata is a very watered downed version of what "would" be taught in a kenjutsu school.

Well, I'm sure your knowledge of kendo far surpasses my own, but I've never heard of any kendo dojo spending much time teaching how to cut well (not that it doesn't happen, but that it doesn't happen reguarly). I mean, you must recognize the huge difference between how you learn to cut in iai, and what's considered a good strike in kendo. Perhaps they work more with that in kendo kata, (I've only had a shallow introduction to the first few forms of kendo kata, so I can't say much about them) but as people with iaito know, you can only learn so much about cutting with a bokken (I guess kendo kata swords do exist for a reason though...), and as I had mentioned before, even iai practitioners usually need tameshigiri practice before they can do many of the more difficult cuts with any sort of effctiveness.

[dolaBeetCeage]

Honestly, do you want people who visit this site to think you are an arrogant jackass?? Stop emphasizing the differences in these traditions. Isn't it easier to see the reflection, than the opposition? Still, I honor you for stating you oppinion in an honest manner. Have a good New Year and may you advance in your training!

"Happy New Year!" Jon Palombi[/QUOTE]


I would like to say that I am sorry, Masahiro, for insulting you on New Year's Eve. The old excuse, "Too much to drink..." does not justify calling you names. Especially in light of the fact that I admire and agree with many of your insights. If I could blame the 2 bottles of Ozeki premium sake, I would. Bottom line is...people resort to insults when they run out of deas.
In short, today I am feeling quite the arrogant jackass, myself. So, I guess I deserve the hang-over. No hard feelings?
One last comment. Saying kendo is watered-down kenjutsu, is like saying rock n' roll is watered-down blues. Ultimately, I feel they are just adaptions based on the need of the times in which they exist.

Yours in Martial Spirit, Jon Palombi

[invasuant]

I think he said kendo kata, not kendo as a whole, was watered down kenjutsu, which I pretty much agree with (based off my extremely limited knowledge of kenjutsu, which holds kenjutsu as doing about what the kata in kendo do, but much more extensively).

[RicyReetred]

Honestly, do you want people who visit this site to think you are an arrogant jackass?? Stop emphasizing the differences in these traditions. Isn't it easier to see the reflection, than the opposition? Still, I honor you for stating you oppinion in an honest manner. Have a good New Year and may you advance in your training!

"Happy New Year!" Jon Palombi

No I would not want people to think that I'm an arrogant Jackass. I'm not emphasizing the differences in the tradititions.
I'm more into this view

I think he said kendo kata, not kendo as a whole, was watered down kenjutsu, which I pretty much agree with (based off my extremely limited knowledge of kenjutsu, which holds kenjutsu as doing about what the kata in kendo do, but much more extensively).

I hope I made that clear and that I won't be regarded as an arrogant Jackass. Since the movies about Jackasses and on MTV I know for sure I'm not one of them, if you don't mind.

[RicyReetred]

Oops double post sorry.

[ttiokjbnhjjillp]

This thread is another rehash of “Is Kendo a sport or Budo?”

The bottom line is usually, “Kendo is what you make it.” So if you only think of it as a sport, that’s all it will ever be to you. If you think of it as Budo, then you will act and train accordingly. What some tend to forget, is just in the name itself, Kendo, the Way of the SWORD, not the way of the shinai. The Concept of Kendo is to discipline the human character through the application of the principles of the katana, not the principles of the shinai.

I have to agree with the sentiments of many older Sensei that believe too much emphisis on shiai kendo is taking away what Kendo is really about. I can see how this has affected the attitute towords Kendo and opinions of what Kendo is, specially with non-practitioners. What is sad to see, is that there are many practioners that have many years in Kendo who cannot see the forrest from the trees. They draw their conclusions on what is preceived as the goals and outcomes of training, which is the results of shiai, and the rules that govern the match. Of our entire Kendo careers, how much time in bogu is actually spend on the floor in a tournament? 1%? It’s exactly this 1% that observers base their opinons on.

I’ve heard this “Kendo doesn’t teach you how to cut” argument lots of times. If Kendo doesn’t teach us how to cut, then why is there so much emphisis on tenouchi, grip, hitting area (Datotsubu), alignment (tsuru), proper swing, and proper hit (ki-ken-tai-ichi)? All of these are necessary in order to have a valid stike (yoku datostu). And why are all these fundamentals stressed and gone over year after year? Because that is the way we would need to hit if we were using a real sword. Anything less would not cut properly. That is the only reason we strike like we do.