[CurtisTH]

Last week I stopped at my dojang on the way home from work to drop off some holiday gifts. I was able to have a conversation with my sabumnim (7th Dan). He is also an accomplished swordman who has a number of well respected videos on the market. (http://www.kendoacademy.com/usa/swordsample.htm)

My question to him was "If you faced someone with a real sword would you use the fighting skills you have in kendo or the many techniques you have mastered in sword practice". With the help of a native Korean speaker I was sure he understood my point. Obviously the stated reasons for studying Kendo is to improve ones character by learning the principles of the katana. We are not training to become combat swordsmen.

He carefully considered my inquiry and did not give me a quick response. I could see he was really thinking about it. While he was pondering my question I suggested to him that many of the sword stances he teaches would be too impractical if you were dealing with a single opponent standing in front of you. i.e. Having the sword held at your side in waki is too slow to bring the sword into play.

Eventually, he said if he had one opponent he would stand in chundan and attack whatever target presented itself using the ingrained kumdo attacks. However, if he had multiple opponents he would use the sword techniques and stances that were suggested by the number and position of adversaries.

My final annoying question was "then why don't we practice against multiple opponents on a regular basis in class?". I never got an answer to that one. I didn't want to press my luck so I let it slide. I thought this conversation was worthy of a thread.

[Nicihntm]

My final annoying question was "then why don't we practice against multiple opponents on a regular basis in class?". I never got an answer to that one. I didn't want to press my luck so I let it slide. I thought this conversation was worthy of a thread.

We did that one practice... against 2 people. omg, it was the most tiring thing ever... You really have to move fast and get away after striking.

I think people don't practice that because what you do against one person is probably different than what you do against multiple people, and it becomes much more about technique than 'do'.

[CurtisTH]

That and it's unsafe. If two or more people fought one, thy would naturally move to the sides or to the back of the one, and modern bogu is only cut out to protect from one direction. And my personnal opinion is that alot (if not most) of the kendo methods of using a shinai wouldn't work out very well with a real sword (exempting kata, of course). The disparity between iaido and kendo makes this fairly apparent. It wouldn't make much sense to stop your sword just barely below your entry target, then charge in and bump into a hopefully dead body. Alot of the kendo waza which require bouncing the opposing shinai off of yours wouldn't be as effective with metal swords, and kendo only teaches you how to execute and defend against a very small portion of the possible cuts used in iaido and presumably kenjutsu. Kendo doesn't teach how to make good cuts very well either; the tenuchi is different, they don't follow through, and there's a limit to what can be improved without an iaito, and even an iaido practitioner usually needs tameshigiri practice to get all their cuts effective. Small, tournament style attacks used in kendo would be fairly ineffective with a real sword, especially if armor was involved. This isn't to say it would be useless though. Kendo does teach timing and how to think (or better yet, how to not think) when fighting, but my point is that I wouldn't want to use it if I ever found myself in that situation, or not much of it anyway. Mostly I'd just rely on what iaido has taught me, maybe using some kendo waza that would work well. Of course my knowledge, especially of kendo, is very limited.

[Rithlilky]

We actullay did 2 on 1 practice and 5 on 3 practice in our dojo and it was a very interesting experience. And it is possible, for the lone person to win, but it takes skill and strategy which you wouldn't have to use in a 1 on 1 situation. It also brings up a sense of urgency that we no longer feel in 1 on 1 matches since we have become acustomed to them. One of my sempai said he felt it can help your kendo when practicing against multiple opponents for a few reasons. He didnt tell me the exact reasons but I can think of a few.

Everything seems to happen faster, so you have to think a lot quicker.

There is more strategizing involved when fighting multiple opponents.

Zanshin is extremely important, because once you strike one opponent, you have to be ready for the next, moreso than when fighting against 1 opponent.

Learning to curb the sense of urgency or panic would be extremely valuable.

There are probably a few more, but I cant think of any. And if it isn't helpfull to your kendo, atleast its realy fun.

[Gmvkgkmn]

lets be clear here gang

Kendo with a katana is only groovey as long as your katana weilding opponent is also a kendo practioner..... in which case it is fine and good for development (and/or death )

Now if you start talking about, iaido, kenjutsu, bujutsu, kyudo, sabers etc it is the same as saying "who will win the wrestler or the kendoka" you just cant compare...

kendo with a katana is good, and i think it would stand to you if you ever were in a life and death situation with another kendoka with a katana....

the 2 vs 1 fights are ok (i've done it in my club) they teach a fraction of kendo but a lesson none the less... they teach you stamina and how to manipulate you opponent... AS ... the only way to win is to make one kendoka stand infront of the other.

downsides are its mayhem and seme, zanshin etc all go out the window and your technique gets scrappy and very small, but then thats not the point of the lesson....

If a good instructor suggests it, they do so for a reason, if you do it in your back garden... dont expect to learn anything.

[KimLinbert]

kendo with a katana is good, and i think it would stand to you if you ever were in a life and death situation with another kendoka with a katana....

~Or the average drunken jackasswith a stick.
But then again, it's not like people are walking around with Daisho tucked into their belts either. (Thank goodness for that)

What I find more interesting is what Old Warrior wrote on his Sambumnim in that "He is also an accomplished swordman."
Academically speaking, how does one define "accomplished" in this sense? (As a swordsman?)

[GogaMegaPiska]

~Or the average drunken jackasswith a stick.
But then again, it's not like people are walking around with Daisho tucked into their belts either. (Thank goodness for that)

What I find more interesting is what Old Warrior wrote on his Sambumnim in that "He is also an accomplished swordman."
Academically speaking, how does one define "accomplished" in this sense? (As a swordsman?)

I am guessing by accomplised, he means, a very skilled and high ranked person, and by swordsman he means, one who practices the sword in Iaido, I think?

[PVaQlNaP]

Honestly, if I ever planned on fighting someone with a sword, I'd just bring a gun.

[DoctorBretonDen]

I used to think about this stuff quite a bit, Old Warrior. I think the answer runs personal and deep. I think, personally, that it depends on the individual, as Bob said. Let's not forget kendo training grew out of the desire to practice dueling techniques full speed. The question is, does it still accomplish that, since it has become, over its nearly two centuries of development, more sportified, and divorced from other sword disciplines, such as iai, kenjutsu, batto, etc?

It's up to the individual. Me, personally, I have always felt that combative sport trumps other kinds of martial arts due to its "live" training. There's exceptions, sure. But that's just my two yen, and I don't really know the exchange rate...

[MwhwF6bp]

Having the sword held at your side in waki is too slow to bring the sword into play.

Not true. You should have a look at itto-ryu.

The other stuff I am not going to get into.

[Bugamerka]

~What I find more interesting is what Old Warrior wrote on his Sambumnim in that "He is also an accomplished swordman."
Academically speaking, how does one define "accomplished" in this sense? (As a swordsman?)

I gave you a link to follow. It contained at least 7 clips of his swordsmanship. If your eye is somewhat trained, no more discussion on this point is needed.

[Manteiv]

I gave you a link to follow. It contained at least 7 clips of his swordsmanship. If your eye is somewhat trained, no more discussion on this point is needed.

I just watched them, and I was realy impressed.

[justashonglefan]

A bit OT but I'm really interested in the provenance of those sword techniques, which look Japanese in origin. Are they adapted from a particular school of iai? If so, which one?

b

[XzBZB2UV]

A bit OT but I'm really interested in the provenance of those sword techniques, which look Japanese in origin. Are they adapted from a particular school of iai? If so, which one?

This was taken directly from the extensive writings in Master Seong's website (http://kendoacademy.com/):

"I used the Japanese Nakamura Ryu model of eight directional cutting."

Does this help?

[UvjqTVVC]

My take is that there are aspects of things that you learn and use in kendo that would of course be of use in sword combat, but there are also aspects that would not. In kendo there are aset of rules that one is using to score ippon with but in combat the rules are quite different. We used to practice (on occasion) kendo against multiple (max 4) opponents but rarely and haven't done so for a number of years.

[CHEAPCIALISFORYOU]

This was taken directly from the extensive writings in Master Seong's website (http://kendoacademy.com/):

"I used the Japanese Nakamura Ryu model of eight directional cutting."

Does this help?

Yes thank you. So it would appear that Master Seong has developed these forms himself.

b

[KlaraNovikoffaZ]

So it would appear that Master Seong has developed these forms himself.

I couldn't say. He is a real traditionalist and a member of the KKA hierarchy. I imagine he could and would give credit to whomever were his teachers as well as the style. Ethnocentricism does not cloud his vision, as he even calls his schools "kendo academies".

[rootoronpunty]

Most of the major traditions of sport/combat, in regards to swordsmanship, have been coming to this same point of debate. All forms of sport/sword-fighting develope quick reflexes, timing, stamina, fighting-spirit, strategy and intuition. All good stuff! This is, of course, relative to the rules and circumstances found within the sphere of the game. ( Based on the assumption that one's opponent also has trained within the same system.) Wheather Kendo, Gumdo, Olympic fencing, Jianshu bouting, etc...when facing an opponent with a live blade, many of the techniques usually used in a sport/sword competition would prove foolhearty. And quite LETHAL to the practitioner executing such techniques. Multiple opponents? Now this is something real historical warroirs had to contend with in times of war. Still, it's doubtful if training for lethal duels or devising tactics against multiple foes would help an individual win a kendo match, in one-on-one competition. I agree, it's a whole different ball of wax. Always challenging, though, and sometimes fun to experience with practice weapons. I suspect there is nothing fun about a duel with sharp steel blades. One or many adversaries, Hell, real swords are made to kill! How would a modern sport/swordsman contend with these challenges? Conversly, how would an historic warrior deal with the rules and subtle nuances of modern kendo? The obvious conclussion is that profound value can be found in all aspects of swordsmanship. While it is not neccessary to pursue each road leading towards the Way of the Sword, there is no limit to the depth of knowledge available and avenues accessible. There seems to be a wealth of insight to be gained from the ideas expressed on this thread! Many thanks, All, for some of the fine thoughts presented here.
Later, Jon

[vansVoish]

...when facing an opponent with a live blade, many of the techniques usually used in a sport/sword competition would prove foolhearty. And quite LETHAL to the practitioner executing such techniques. Like what? I'm not challenging you, and I may even agree with you, but can you expand on this point? Name the foolhardy and possibly lethal techniques you had in mind.

[salomal-qask]

When it comes to fighting multiple attackers, the general rule is to try to engage them one at a time. I’m sure in any situation where you are confronted with multiple opponents, the odds are stacked against you, and if the group is coordinated at all or is centrally commanded/controlled you pretty much don’t stand a chance no matter what style you use or how good you are..

If we breakdown Kendo today for what it is and what it offers in terms of actual sword combat this is what I see:

1. Rigorous workout that conditions the body and mind for multiple, back to back engagements.
2. Sword basics and advanced techniques.
3. Full speed/full contact sparring. Not only do we learn how to attack at full speed, we also learn how to react to someone coming at us at full speed with full intent.

People get hung up on the fact that shiai kendo has rules. They think that kendoka won’t be good in a real sword fight because we train with rules. I’m of the opinion, that if the rules were taken away, kendoka would have even more of an advantage.

I concede that because we don’t have to counter attacks to our legs or other targets we could be at a disadvantage, but I don’t see any schools or dojo out there training at full speed/intent/contact to take advantage of these targets.

What I have read in many books, is we train to obtain the state of no-mind. Yagyu Munenori, Musashi, Tesshu, all same the same thing, you have to push yourself harder and harder everyday. You have to train hard and often till it all gets engrained in you. Kendo is the only sword art I have found that pushes you this way.

If you train with the mind that Kendo is only a sport and work on small fast hits that give you shiai points, then I agree, Kendo does not teach you combat sword. But if you train hard, with the belief that Kendo does iin fact teach you life and death sword techniques, and if you approach shiai in the manner Noma says in the Kendo Reader, each match taken with as much seriousness as a life and death situation, and you train accordingly, then I think you will find Kendo has a lot more to offer than what is seen.