Question on Kendo - DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate

**Poowssnople** · 09-07-2007, 10:15 PM

I'm interested in learning a sword fighting style that is closer to real sword fighting. In other words, something that's fast pace and closest to real sword fighting. It seems that there are a lot of practices out there like Iaido, which only practices the "Art" aspect of swords... like how to draw the sword, how to hold the sword, and how to move around with the sword..... and there's kenjutsu, which you're basically practicing slicing with another partner in slow motion? (am i right?)

and kendo seems to be the fast pace sport out of all of these.... and the closest one to a real sword fight? or are there any other practices out there that i am not aware of?

Lastly, i have watched a few kendo matches on youtube, but it seems like 99% of the time, all the people do is rush in and try to smack the other person's head from the top.... the attacks almost always come from a top down motion... unlike a real sword fight in which you can slice another person from the belly area... and also, it seems like that most of the time people strikes twice or only strike a very limited times before both the kendo practitioner stop by either stepping back or have their shinai touching each other, then push off each other and start over.... it always appear as if the game is played by. striking twice, then take a break, then striking twice again....

maybe someone can clarify this to me, or suggest a style that is closer to real sword fighting?

**AliceFromHouston** · 09-07-2007, 10:24 PM

Hey Silo, that's a rather amusing description of kendo

By the sound of it, kendo may not be the sport/art for you...or at least not yet. You could always try chanbara.

**TughEmotteTug** · 09-07-2007, 10:31 PM

why do you say that?

i mean i do like kendo, but i'm not too familiar with the rules and scoring of it. maybe you could clarify them for me a bit. it's just that from what i've seen on videos, pretty much all the striking motions are top down. like you go in and quickly tap the other guy on his head.

do people strike from all sides in kendo?

by the way i just checked out chambara.....

this looks like a sport for 2 year olds.... they just wildly swing around a foam bat with no techniques and with absolutely no grace whatsoever.

**GalasaKoll** · 09-07-2007, 11:07 PM

Re: Chanbara - well, its not my cup of tea either.

If your interested in learning more, it would really be worth your while to look up and check out kendo in person. It will give you a chance to see the sorts of things you could/will be doing. It will also give you a chance to meet the sensei and enquire about beginner courses - as well as any other questions. If you decide its not for you, you haven't wasted much time or energy, alternatively, it may something that looks like a lot of fun.

While valid points require more than a tap on the head, all cuts are indeed made from the top down - even when cutting dou (the stomach).

**longrema** · 09-07-2007, 11:29 PM

they just wildly swing around a foam bat with no techniques and with absolutely no grace whatsoever.

Ive never been in a real sword fight, but I think your description of it - it you replace "foam bat" with "sword" - might be close to what a real sword fight might be like.

I think if you define what you mean by "grace" then that could help us to point you in the right direction.

I also like your description of kendo -- because thats what it obviously looks like to people who dont do it. Pretty boring right?

**Ygxejxox** · 09-07-2007, 11:34 PM

I'm interested in learning a sword fighting style that is closer to real sword fighting.

Ohh dear, here we go.

In other words, something that's fast pace and closest to real sword fighting.

I would say a koryu with sparring, but I doubt there is one available in the USA. So the closest thing to "sword fighting" for you is kendo.

It seems that there are a lot of practices out there like Iaido, which only practices the "Art" aspect of swords...

Wow, watch it buddy

. We know how to use a real sword (well sort of

)

and there's kenjutsu, which you're basically practicing slicing with another partner in slow motion? (am i right?)

No slow motion except when you are a beginner (that means you do slowmo for a long time

). But in all JSA (I know) you are suposed to cut the other guy down, what do you think the sword was for?

unlike a real sword fight in which you can slice another person from the belly area...

Have you ever seen a real swordfight? Doubt it, there are cut to the belly, they are done in kendo, why the vertical cut is used so much, I dunno, I haven't got the experience to explain this (can someone explain this, I'm kinda curious to). Give kendo a chance, I believe you'll like it. Don't expect XMA/manga BS moves, kendo (like any other JSA) is hard work and can be lots of fun.

Wish I could explain this more clearly to you, but I need to get some work done.

**isopsmypovA** · 09-08-2007, 12:10 AM

why do you say that?

i mean i do like kendo, but i'm not too familiar with the rules and scoring of it. maybe you could clarify them for me a bit. it's just that from what i've seen on videos, pretty much all the striking motions are top down. like you go in and quickly tap the other guy on his head.

do people strike from all sides in kendo?

by the way i just checked out chambara..... this looks like a sport for 2 year olds.... they just wildly swing around a foam bat with no techniques and with absolutely no grace whatsoever.

Welcome. You might've opened Pandora's Box on this one, but hopefully you'll be able to take some things in stride.

First, what do you mean "closer to real sword fighting"? Have you seen a sword fight? Have you held a sword, and tried to throw it around like a lightsaber. Granted, if all of us tried to run out and do shinken-shobu (ie: tried to cut each other up with a real sword), it might look fast and amazing. But in general, like a regular fight, people trying to kill each other with swords is, unless they're both trained in the same style, pretty much a bunch of guys brutishly trying to break their opponent's kamae to get in for the kill. It's not exactly the stuff you see in the movies, and it certainly looks slower probably. This is something to keep in mind.

Kendo IS about studying how to use a sword. Iaido also is about how to use a sword. Koryu like kenjutsu and the modern Toyama-Ryu schools are also about how to use a sword. Frankly, though, none of us really learn this stuff to run out and kill people with a sword. Probably 99% of the people you talk to here will say they do this for character improvement (or just personal improvement). Very few people sanely attempt to learn this for "real sword fighting" purposes. It's kind of a bad idea, and inapplicable in an age where the average weapon outpaces a man by about 900 feet in a single second.

You talk about how people would slice the belly and the like. Actually, with a daito (katana), you'd probably be going for kesagiri (a horizontal cut across the torso) a lot more than simply trying to cut the "belly". Ichimonji, the name for that particular attack, isn't exactly like an everyday thing. Again, these are things that you could learn from every one of these arts if you study them and their background properly.

Kendo people hit each others' "head" for a lot of reasons, but the rules of their "sparring" (which, by the way, only comprise of a small percentage of kendo - there's a ton of kata that you have to go through once you reach the upper levels of kendo that utilize a sword) require you to have the proper intent and means to have been able to "kill" the other person via a combination of footwork, spirit, timing, and proper form. This isn't exactly SCA or some runabout group of crazy guys. Kendo is the cultural child of the koryu bugei (older schools), and shows it quite well.

You should go to a kendo dojo (find one through the dojo listings on the site) and take a look for yourself. Talk to one of the sensei, and explain what you would like. Certainly, if you're looking to better yourself, and you think that studying the sword will do it, kendo is definitely a great place for you.

PS: Actually, during these sparring matches, a ton of kendoka go after the wrists almost as much as the head. Debana kote for the win.

PPS: Sweet mother of God, did someone just recommend Chanbara? I don't mean to instigate a flame war, but ALL of the chanbara schools around here are in ill repute with the rest of the budo community for their "home sensei learning" video series that allows you to become a teacher. One guy, who teaches at a school in Santa Cruz for "Iaido and Chanbara" claims to falsely have been a student of one of my sensei for several years in "sword arts" such as "tamashigri (sic)" and coach for my school's fencing team (which doesn't exist, and hasn't since the 19th century). From what I hear, Dana whatshisname has run into the same problems with Goshindo's legitimacy as well. I can't believe anyone could let this happen.

I'm not a fan of it, in other words. But if you're having fun, hell, go wild.

**suilusargaino** · 09-08-2007, 01:06 AM

Sweet mother of God, did someone just recommend Chanbara?

who would have thought it possible - and on a kendo forum

I wasn't so much recommending chanbara, rather suggesting it could have been something closer to what silo may have been looking for - luckily, sense has prevailed and this wasn't the case - there's hope yet.

**HotboTgameR** · 09-08-2007, 08:09 AM

Here's a brief description of the arts your asking about, Silo. You can find more in depth info browsing the forums, and nothing beats visiting a good dojo.

Kendo has sparring. None of the other arts really have sparring, although some koryu kata look like it. Kendo only has four targets, the head, wrists, torso and throat (men, kote, do, tsuki). You're right, all of the cuts generally come from the top, but the throat is a thrust. Kendo also practices long and short sword kata, adapted in the early 1900s from different koryu kata, designed to teach aspects of and maintain a connection to actual sword combat.

Iaido is practiced alone or with partners, often with a katana replica called an iaito. You practice drawing the sword and cutting down one or more imaginary opponents. Iaido is generally attached to a koryu style, and it could be said the cuts are more varied than in kendo, i.e. they come from different directions, strike different targets, etc. Many on this forum practice Iai, there's a whole section you can browse to get an idea of how it works and what people think of it (they tend to like it).

Koryu sword arts are styles passed down for hundreds of years and still practiced with the idea of martial application. They tend to involve kata, which are series of pre-arranged moves practiced over and over, designed to teach you how to react to likely situations in combat. Koryu in many ways is closer related to the "battlefield" than kendo or iaido, but there is no live sparring, and schools are comparatively rarer.

As others have already said, the bottom line is in 2007 none of these arts are really practiced to learn how to use a sword to kill. Unlike hand to hand styles, you'll never defend yourself from a mugger in an alleyway with a razor sharp katana. But people still find important reasons to practice these "useless" arts, ranging from, as Sutemi said, character improvement, to competition, to physical exercise to plain enjoyment. From this perspective none of these arts are inherently superior, it's all a matter of personal preference.

Once you get interested in an art, ask around here and someone will be happy to reccomend a respected dojo in your area.

**viagsjicguara** · 09-08-2007, 08:27 AM

There was a guy in my dojo years ago who, if we were doing kendo, he wanted to do iaido, if we did iaido he wanted to learn jodo, if we did jodo he wanted to do judo, if we did judo he wanted to do jujitsu etc.

He was never any good at any of them.

Silo, it seems that you are trying to find an art that fits in with your preconceived notion of what you want. I think your best bet is to start something and do it for several years then, maybe try something else if you are not satisfied.

BTW how old are you? Where are you?

**NKUDirectory** · 09-08-2007, 09:02 AM

While valid points require more than a tap on the head, all cuts are indeed made from the top down - even when cutting dou (the stomach).

..apart from tsuki

**Gakeincidoniac** · 09-08-2007, 06:46 PM

..apart from tsuki

...unless they're on the floor

**buIf6yoW** · 09-08-2007, 11:19 PM

what about that "scrotum tsuki" video? is that ever a legal target?

**JulieSmithdccd** · 09-08-2007, 11:39 PM

Silo, you might Google "Swashbuckling" and find something to your liking. I'm not sure you're meant for kendo, which is not about "real swordfighting."

BTW, since when were kendo targets limited to four, Rob? Aren't there eight - seven cuts (3 on the head, both wrists and both sides of the trunk) and one thrust (throat)?

edit: No, Owen, the scrotum is not a target, although it is involved in thrusting of an entirely different sort.

**Thorwaywhobia** · 09-08-2007, 11:48 PM

edit: No, Owen, the scrotum is not a target, although it is involved in thrusting of an entirely different sort.

lol +rep.

**nickayary** · 09-09-2007, 12:18 AM

what about that "scrotum tsuki" video? is that ever a legal target?

It's called gooli-waza and while it is quite effective, it is not described as a legitimate target.

**Obenuearema** · 09-09-2007, 07:50 AM

BTW, since when were kendo targets limited to four, Rob? Aren't there eight - seven cuts (3 on the head, both wrists and both sides of the trunk) and one thrust (throat)?

Your semantics waza defeats me! You are right, you can cut the head, wrists, torso and thrust at the throat.

**ChebuRAtoR** · 09-09-2007, 06:08 PM

I'm interested in learning a sword fighting style that is closer to real sword fighting. In other words, something that's fast pace and closest to real sword fighting. It seems that there are a lot of practices out there like Iaido, which only practices the "Art" aspect of swords... like how to draw the sword, how to hold the sword, and how to move around with the sword..... and there's kenjutsu, which you're basically practicing slicing with another partner in slow motion? (am i right?)

and kendo seems to be the fast pace sport out of all of these.... and the closest one to a real sword fight? or are there any other practices out there that i am not aware of?

Lastly, i have watched a few kendo matches on youtube, but it seems like 99% of the time, all the people do is rush in and try to smack the other person's head from the top.... the attacks almost always come from a top down motion... unlike a real sword fight in which you can slice another person from the belly area... and also, it seems like that most of the time people strikes twice or only strike a very limited times before both the kendo practitioner stop by either stepping back or have their shinai touching each other, then push off each other and start over.... it always appear as if the game is played by. striking twice, then take a break, then striking twice again....

maybe someone can clarify this to me, or suggest a style that is closer to real sword fighting?

I can tell you that practicing kendo is probably different from what you have been watching on utube. The goal of real sword fighting would be to zap your opponent with no harm to oneself. A Samurai always went into a fight expecting to be killed as that would be the result if fairly equally matched, both would die, one immediately, the other later from wound infection.

In reality when I practice kendo with a person of higher rank, I cannot touch them, but they can (and do) strike at will. A real sword fight would look like that duel in Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai" , one fatal strike and it is all over.
Getting a 'Men' strike from a katana is a lot different from a foil/epee stab from Stewart Grainger.

**Alex** · 09-09-2007, 08:27 PM

I'm interested in learning a sword fighting style that is closer to real sword fighting. In other words, something that's fast pace and closest to real sword fighting. It seems that there are a lot of practices out there like Iaido, which only practices the "Art" aspect of swords... like how to draw the sword, how to hold the sword, and how to move around with the sword..... and there's kenjutsu, which you're basically practicing slicing with another partner in slow motion? (am i right?)

and kendo seems to be the fast pace sport out of all of these.... and the closest one to a real sword fight? or are there any other practices out there that i am not aware of?

Lastly, i have watched a few kendo matches on youtube, but it seems like 99% of the time, all the people do is rush in and try to smack the other person's head from the top.... the attacks almost always come from a top down motion... unlike a real sword fight in which you can slice another person from the belly area... and also, it seems like that most of the time people strikes twice or only strike a very limited times before both the kendo practitioner stop by either stepping back or have their shinai touching each other, then push off each other and start over.... it always appear as if the game is played by. striking twice, then take a break, then striking twice again....

maybe someone can clarify this to me, or suggest a style that is closer to real sword fighting?

Hi Silo-san!

Welcome to the forum!

First, I know you aren't saying you want to actually use a real sword to spar with.

However, you say you want to get as close to real sword fighting as possible. Would you like to see what happens when a real sword is used by a real Samurai on a person? Please see here: WARNING: Gruesome photos in link.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20604

The link holds actual photos of what Samurai did to some foreigners in the mid 1800's, along with a written description of what happened and why. It's not pretty.

So, please rethink your idea on wanting to fight like the Samurai did. Swords were banned in 1876 and Samurai could no longer carry a sword, and dueling was illegal. So, to romanticise it, is foolish.

Swords kill. Period. Nowadays, we practice the sword arts to help develope our character in and outside the dojo. This is true in Japan, too.

So, all sword arts are good to learn. And, iaido and kenjutsu are the real thing literally, as kendo is. You just don't get to spar in iaido and kenjutsu. Those arts are at least 400 years old, give or take, depending on the Ryu(style). Kendo is roughly 150 years old, and is fairly recent, as a result. It came about from kenjutsu.

I think you've been given some really good descriptions on the three arts so far, but I have some other things to add.

Kendo really is beautiful. Once you start learning it, over time, you would begin to understand it and see the beauty of the art. Right now, you don't have a clue what you are looking at because you haven't had any kendo training yet, so you can't see why each kenshi is doing what they do. For example, they aren't taking a break when they stop. They are waiting to attack and looking for openings.

Well, kendo has it's roots in kenjutsu. That cut to the head you see, comes from kenjutsu. That would cut a person open from top to bottom because in kenjutsu/Iaido, you cut through to just above the ground. We are taught this concept in our kendo kata. In shinai(bamboo sword) kendo, we stop the cut once we strike the head, so we don't hurt our opponent, because injuring them is not the point of doing kendo. The same is said for the doh, kote and tsuki cuts. All come from the koryu sword arts.

Why Men(Cut to head) is done the most? That's an interesting question. That's possibly because people leave their men open more often than other targets, so a person will attack the men if it's open. But, that's just a guess. I'm still only a beginner myself, so don't count it as a definitive answer. (Looking for corrections, because now I'm interested if I'm thinking right. Please do!)

Oh. Kendo kata is koryu(old school) kata done with a partner. We use bokuto(wooden sword resembling a katana) and do not wear armour. We also do not hit each other, since attacking with a bokuto can result in serious injury or death. There are 10 kata: 7 long sword kata and 3 short sword defending/attacking (Not sure which. Anyone?) against the long sword kata. Each of these kata come from a different koryu kenjutsu ryu. I don't remember off-hand which Ryu they come from. I apologise for that.

We have to know these kata in addition to our shinai kendo waza(techniques).

I think you should give kendo a chance. It's the closest thing you will get to dueling, so to speak. But, please remember, we don't duel anymore. Those days are long gone.

Kendo is a lot of fun, if you can tolerate the endless repetition of waza just to learn something right. You won't suddenly just get to spar right away. It takes a lot of patience and hard work to earn the right to wear bogu(armour). Typically, it takes 3-6 months of work to develope decent kihon(basics) to be able to safely spar with someone. Sparring is called Ji-geiko. You would need to have good footwork, good tenouchi(hold the shinai properly and strike without clubbing someone.) good kihon and a good attitude to earn your bogu.

So, you see, there is a lot involved in learning kendo. It takes a very long time, even a lifetime, to become very good. Beginners learn waza slow first so they will develop good technique. If you try to be fast right away, you will never develop good skills. So, there is loads to work on. Kendo is for life. You can study it into the 80's and even 90's.

I highly suggest you try it at least, if there is a dojo within 2-3 hours or less, away. Good, legit dojo are not common, so please don't expect one to be in your backyard. You take what you can get.

Oh... I guess I'm biased. I forgot to mention about iaido and kenjutsu! Both of those arts should be given a chance if they are in your state as well, so you can choose what interests you best. Please be aware that legitimate iaido is rare and legitimate kenjutsu is even more rare. So, you may not get to even try those.

So, if you are interested, please give your state and town that you are in and we can see what is in your state.

I hope this helps a bit!

Oh, and sorry everyone for such a long post! *bow*

Kaoru

09-07-2007, 10:15 PM	#1
Poowssnople Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 554 Senior Member	Question on Kendo I'm interested in learning a sword fighting style that is closer to real sword fighting. In other words, something that's fast pace and closest to real sword fighting. It seems that there are a lot of practices out there like Iaido, which only practices the "Art" aspect of swords... like how to draw the sword, how to hold the sword, and how to move around with the sword..... and there's kenjutsu, which you're basically practicing slicing with another partner in slow motion? (am i right?) and kendo seems to be the fast pace sport out of all of these.... and the closest one to a real sword fight? or are there any other practices out there that i am not aware of? Lastly, i have watched a few kendo matches on youtube, but it seems like 99% of the time, all the people do is rush in and try to smack the other person's head from the top.... the attacks almost always come from a top down motion... unlike a real sword fight in which you can slice another person from the belly area... and also, it seems like that most of the time people strikes twice or only strike a very limited times before both the kendo practitioner stop by either stepping back or have their shinai touching each other, then push off each other and start over.... it always appear as if the game is played by. striking twice, then take a break, then striking twice again.... maybe someone can clarify this to me, or suggest a style that is closer to real sword fighting? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-07-2007, 10:24 PM	#2
AliceFromHouston Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 506 Senior Member	Hey Silo, that's a rather amusing description of kendo By the sound of it, kendo may not be the sport/art for you...or at least not yet. You could always try chanbara. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-07-2007, 10:31 PM	#3
TughEmotteTug Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 503 Senior Member	why do you say that? i mean i do like kendo, but i'm not too familiar with the rules and scoring of it. maybe you could clarify them for me a bit. it's just that from what i've seen on videos, pretty much all the striking motions are top down. like you go in and quickly tap the other guy on his head. do people strike from all sides in kendo? by the way i just checked out chambara..... this looks like a sport for 2 year olds.... they just wildly swing around a foam bat with no techniques and with absolutely no grace whatsoever. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

09-07-2007, 11:07 PM	#4
GalasaKoll Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 441 Senior Member	Re: Chanbara - well, its not my cup of tea either. If your interested in learning more, it would really be worth your while to look up and check out kendo in person. It will give you a chance to see the sorts of things you could/will be doing. It will also give you a chance to meet the sensei and enquire about beginner courses - as well as any other questions. If you decide its not for you, you haven't wasted much time or energy, alternatively, it may something that looks like a lot of fun. While valid points require more than a tap on the head, all cuts are indeed made from the top down - even when cutting dou (the stomach). Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-07-2007, 11:29 PM	#5
longrema Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 361 Senior Member	they just wildly swing around a foam bat with no techniques and with absolutely no grace whatsoever. Ive never been in a real sword fight, but I think your description of it - it you replace "foam bat" with "sword" - might be close to what a real sword fight might be like. I think if you define what you mean by "grace" then that could help us to point you in the right direction. I also like your description of kendo -- because thats what it obviously looks like to people who dont do it. Pretty boring right? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-07-2007, 11:34 PM	#6
Ygxejxox Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 483 Senior Member	I'm interested in learning a sword fighting style that is closer to real sword fighting. Ohh dear, here we go. In other words, something that's fast pace and closest to real sword fighting. I would say a koryu with sparring, but I doubt there is one available in the USA. So the closest thing to "sword fighting" for you is kendo. It seems that there are a lot of practices out there like Iaido, which only practices the "Art" aspect of swords... Wow, watch it buddy . We know how to use a real sword (well sort of ) and there's kenjutsu, which you're basically practicing slicing with another partner in slow motion? (am i right?) No slow motion except when you are a beginner (that means you do slowmo for a long time ). But in all JSA (I know) you are suposed to cut the other guy down, what do you think the sword was for? unlike a real sword fight in which you can slice another person from the belly area... Have you ever seen a real swordfight? Doubt it, there are cut to the belly, they are done in kendo, why the vertical cut is used so much, I dunno, I haven't got the experience to explain this (can someone explain this, I'm kinda curious to). Give kendo a chance, I believe you'll like it. Don't expect XMA/manga BS moves, kendo (like any other JSA) is hard work and can be lots of fun. Wish I could explain this more clearly to you, but I need to get some work done. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-08-2007, 12:10 AM	#7
isopsmypovA Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 493 Senior Member	why do you say that? i mean i do like kendo, but i'm not too familiar with the rules and scoring of it. maybe you could clarify them for me a bit. it's just that from what i've seen on videos, pretty much all the striking motions are top down. like you go in and quickly tap the other guy on his head. do people strike from all sides in kendo? by the way i just checked out chambara..... this looks like a sport for 2 year olds.... they just wildly swing around a foam bat with no techniques and with absolutely no grace whatsoever. Welcome. You might've opened Pandora's Box on this one, but hopefully you'll be able to take some things in stride. First, what do you mean "closer to real sword fighting"? Have you seen a sword fight? Have you held a sword, and tried to throw it around like a lightsaber. Granted, if all of us tried to run out and do shinken-shobu (ie: tried to cut each other up with a real sword), it might look fast and amazing. But in general, like a regular fight, people trying to kill each other with swords is, unless they're both trained in the same style, pretty much a bunch of guys brutishly trying to break their opponent's kamae to get in for the kill. It's not exactly the stuff you see in the movies, and it certainly looks slower probably. This is something to keep in mind. Kendo IS about studying how to use a sword. Iaido also is about how to use a sword. Koryu like kenjutsu and the modern Toyama-Ryu schools are also about how to use a sword. Frankly, though, none of us really learn this stuff to run out and kill people with a sword. Probably 99% of the people you talk to here will say they do this for character improvement (or just personal improvement). Very few people sanely attempt to learn this for "real sword fighting" purposes. It's kind of a bad idea, and inapplicable in an age where the average weapon outpaces a man by about 900 feet in a single second. You talk about how people would slice the belly and the like. Actually, with a daito (katana), you'd probably be going for kesagiri (a horizontal cut across the torso) a lot more than simply trying to cut the "belly". Ichimonji, the name for that particular attack, isn't exactly like an everyday thing. Again, these are things that you could learn from every one of these arts if you study them and their background properly. Kendo people hit each others' "head" for a lot of reasons, but the rules of their "sparring" (which, by the way, only comprise of a small percentage of kendo - there's a ton of kata that you have to go through once you reach the upper levels of kendo that utilize a sword) require you to have the proper intent and means to have been able to "kill" the other person via a combination of footwork, spirit, timing, and proper form. This isn't exactly SCA or some runabout group of crazy guys. Kendo is the cultural child of the koryu bugei (older schools), and shows it quite well. You should go to a kendo dojo (find one through the dojo listings on the site) and take a look for yourself. Talk to one of the sensei, and explain what you would like. Certainly, if you're looking to better yourself, and you think that studying the sword will do it, kendo is definitely a great place for you. PS: Actually, during these sparring matches, a ton of kendoka go after the wrists almost as much as the head. Debana kote for the win. PPS: Sweet mother of God, did someone just recommend Chanbara? I don't mean to instigate a flame war, but ALL of the chanbara schools around here are in ill repute with the rest of the budo community for their "home sensei learning" video series that allows you to become a teacher. One guy, who teaches at a school in Santa Cruz for "Iaido and Chanbara" claims to falsely have been a student of one of my sensei for several years in "sword arts" such as "tamashigri (sic)" and coach for my school's fencing team (which doesn't exist, and hasn't since the 19th century). From what I hear, Dana whatshisname has run into the same problems with Goshindo's legitimacy as well. I can't believe anyone could let this happen. I'm not a fan of it, in other words. But if you're having fun, hell, go wild. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-08-2007, 01:06 AM	#8
suilusargaino Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 593 Senior Member	Sweet mother of God, did someone just recommend Chanbara? who would have thought it possible - and on a kendo forum I wasn't so much recommending chanbara, rather suggesting it could have been something closer to what silo may have been looking for - luckily, sense has prevailed and this wasn't the case - there's hope yet. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-08-2007, 08:09 AM	#9
HotboTgameR Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 378 Senior Member	Here's a brief description of the arts your asking about, Silo. You can find more in depth info browsing the forums, and nothing beats visiting a good dojo. Kendo has sparring. None of the other arts really have sparring, although some koryu kata look like it. Kendo only has four targets, the head, wrists, torso and throat (men, kote, do, tsuki). You're right, all of the cuts generally come from the top, but the throat is a thrust. Kendo also practices long and short sword kata, adapted in the early 1900s from different koryu kata, designed to teach aspects of and maintain a connection to actual sword combat. Iaido is practiced alone or with partners, often with a katana replica called an iaito. You practice drawing the sword and cutting down one or more imaginary opponents. Iaido is generally attached to a koryu style, and it could be said the cuts are more varied than in kendo, i.e. they come from different directions, strike different targets, etc. Many on this forum practice Iai, there's a whole section you can browse to get an idea of how it works and what people think of it (they tend to like it). Koryu sword arts are styles passed down for hundreds of years and still practiced with the idea of martial application. They tend to involve kata, which are series of pre-arranged moves practiced over and over, designed to teach you how to react to likely situations in combat. Koryu in many ways is closer related to the "battlefield" than kendo or iaido, but there is no live sparring, and schools are comparatively rarer. As others have already said, the bottom line is in 2007 none of these arts are really practiced to learn how to use a sword to kill. Unlike hand to hand styles, you'll never defend yourself from a mugger in an alleyway with a razor sharp katana. But people still find important reasons to practice these "useless" arts, ranging from, as Sutemi said, character improvement, to competition, to physical exercise to plain enjoyment. From this perspective none of these arts are inherently superior, it's all a matter of personal preference. Once you get interested in an art, ask around here and someone will be happy to reccomend a respected dojo in your area. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-08-2007, 08:27 AM	#10
viagsjicguara Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 458 Senior Member	There was a guy in my dojo years ago who, if we were doing kendo, he wanted to do iaido, if we did iaido he wanted to learn jodo, if we did jodo he wanted to do judo, if we did judo he wanted to do jujitsu etc. He was never any good at any of them. Silo, it seems that you are trying to find an art that fits in with your preconceived notion of what you want. I think your best bet is to start something and do it for several years then, maybe try something else if you are not satisfied. BTW how old are you? Where are you? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-08-2007, 09:02 AM	#11
NKUDirectory Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 597 Senior Member	While valid points require more than a tap on the head, all cuts are indeed made from the top down - even when cutting dou (the stomach). ..apart from tsuki Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-08-2007, 06:46 PM	#12
Gakeincidoniac Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 446 Senior Member	..apart from tsuki ...unless they're on the floor Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-08-2007, 11:19 PM	#13
buIf6yoW Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 481 Senior Member	what about that "scrotum tsuki" video? is that ever a legal target? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-08-2007, 11:39 PM	#14
JulieSmithdccd Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 592 Senior Member	Silo, you might Google "Swashbuckling" and find something to your liking. I'm not sure you're meant for kendo, which is not about "real swordfighting." BTW, since when were kendo targets limited to four, Rob? Aren't there eight - seven cuts (3 on the head, both wrists and both sides of the trunk) and one thrust (throat)? edit: No, Owen, the scrotum is not a target, although it is involved in thrusting of an entirely different sort. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-08-2007, 11:48 PM	#15
Thorwaywhobia Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 493 Senior Member	edit: No, Owen, the scrotum is not a target, although it is involved in thrusting of an entirely different sort. lol +rep. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-09-2007, 12:18 AM	#16
nickayary Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 396 Senior Member	what about that "scrotum tsuki" video? is that ever a legal target? It's called gooli-waza and while it is quite effective, it is not described as a legitimate target. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-09-2007, 07:50 AM	#17
Obenuearema Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 442 Senior Member	BTW, since when were kendo targets limited to four, Rob? Aren't there eight - seven cuts (3 on the head, both wrists and both sides of the trunk) and one thrust (throat)? Your semantics waza defeats me! You are right, you can cut the head, wrists, torso and thrust at the throat. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-09-2007, 06:08 PM	#18
ChebuRAtoR Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 536 Senior Member	I'm interested in learning a sword fighting style that is closer to real sword fighting. In other words, something that's fast pace and closest to real sword fighting. It seems that there are a lot of practices out there like Iaido, which only practices the "Art" aspect of swords... like how to draw the sword, how to hold the sword, and how to move around with the sword..... and there's kenjutsu, which you're basically practicing slicing with another partner in slow motion? (am i right?) and kendo seems to be the fast pace sport out of all of these.... and the closest one to a real sword fight? or are there any other practices out there that i am not aware of? Lastly, i have watched a few kendo matches on youtube, but it seems like 99% of the time, all the people do is rush in and try to smack the other person's head from the top.... the attacks almost always come from a top down motion... unlike a real sword fight in which you can slice another person from the belly area... and also, it seems like that most of the time people strikes twice or only strike a very limited times before both the kendo practitioner stop by either stepping back or have their shinai touching each other, then push off each other and start over.... it always appear as if the game is played by. striking twice, then take a break, then striking twice again.... maybe someone can clarify this to me, or suggest a style that is closer to real sword fighting? I can tell you that practicing kendo is probably different from what you have been watching on utube. The goal of real sword fighting would be to zap your opponent with no harm to oneself. A Samurai always went into a fight expecting to be killed as that would be the result if fairly equally matched, both would die, one immediately, the other later from wound infection. In reality when I practice kendo with a person of higher rank, I cannot touch them, but they can (and do) strike at will. A real sword fight would look like that duel in Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai" , one fatal strike and it is all over. Getting a 'Men' strike from a katana is a lot different from a foil/epee stab from Stewart Grainger. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-09-2007, 08:27 PM	#19
Alex Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 430 Senior Member	I'm interested in learning a sword fighting style that is closer to real sword fighting. In other words, something that's fast pace and closest to real sword fighting. It seems that there are a lot of practices out there like Iaido, which only practices the "Art" aspect of swords... like how to draw the sword, how to hold the sword, and how to move around with the sword..... and there's kenjutsu, which you're basically practicing slicing with another partner in slow motion? (am i right?) and kendo seems to be the fast pace sport out of all of these.... and the closest one to a real sword fight? or are there any other practices out there that i am not aware of? Lastly, i have watched a few kendo matches on youtube, but it seems like 99% of the time, all the people do is rush in and try to smack the other person's head from the top.... the attacks almost always come from a top down motion... unlike a real sword fight in which you can slice another person from the belly area... and also, it seems like that most of the time people strikes twice or only strike a very limited times before both the kendo practitioner stop by either stepping back or have their shinai touching each other, then push off each other and start over.... it always appear as if the game is played by. striking twice, then take a break, then striking twice again.... maybe someone can clarify this to me, or suggest a style that is closer to real sword fighting? Hi Silo-san! Welcome to the forum! First, I know you aren't saying you want to actually use a real sword to spar with. However, you say you want to get as close to real sword fighting as possible. Would you like to see what happens when a real sword is used by a real Samurai on a person? Please see here: WARNING: Gruesome photos in link. http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20604 The link holds actual photos of what Samurai did to some foreigners in the mid 1800's, along with a written description of what happened and why. It's not pretty. So, please rethink your idea on wanting to fight like the Samurai did. Swords were banned in 1876 and Samurai could no longer carry a sword, and dueling was illegal. So, to romanticise it, is foolish. Swords kill. Period. Nowadays, we practice the sword arts to help develope our character in and outside the dojo. This is true in Japan, too. So, all sword arts are good to learn. And, iaido and kenjutsu are the real thing literally, as kendo is. You just don't get to spar in iaido and kenjutsu. Those arts are at least 400 years old, give or take, depending on the Ryu(style). Kendo is roughly 150 years old, and is fairly recent, as a result. It came about from kenjutsu. I think you've been given some really good descriptions on the three arts so far, but I have some other things to add. Kendo really is beautiful. Once you start learning it, over time, you would begin to understand it and see the beauty of the art. Right now, you don't have a clue what you are looking at because you haven't had any kendo training yet, so you can't see why each kenshi is doing what they do. For example, they aren't taking a break when they stop. They are waiting to attack and looking for openings. Well, kendo has it's roots in kenjutsu. That cut to the head you see, comes from kenjutsu. That would cut a person open from top to bottom because in kenjutsu/Iaido, you cut through to just above the ground. We are taught this concept in our kendo kata. In shinai(bamboo sword) kendo, we stop the cut once we strike the head, so we don't hurt our opponent, because injuring them is not the point of doing kendo. The same is said for the doh, kote and tsuki cuts. All come from the koryu sword arts. Why Men(Cut to head) is done the most? That's an interesting question. That's possibly because people leave their men open more often than other targets, so a person will attack the men if it's open. But, that's just a guess. I'm still only a beginner myself, so don't count it as a definitive answer. (Looking for corrections, because now I'm interested if I'm thinking right. Please do!) Oh. Kendo kata is koryu(old school) kata done with a partner. We use bokuto(wooden sword resembling a katana) and do not wear armour. We also do not hit each other, since attacking with a bokuto can result in serious injury or death. There are 10 kata: 7 long sword kata and 3 short sword defending/attacking (Not sure which. Anyone?) against the long sword kata. Each of these kata come from a different koryu kenjutsu ryu. I don't remember off-hand which Ryu they come from. I apologise for that. We have to know these kata in addition to our shinai kendo waza(techniques). I think you should give kendo a chance. It's the closest thing you will get to dueling, so to speak. But, please remember, we don't duel anymore. Those days are long gone. Kendo is a lot of fun, if you can tolerate the endless repetition of waza just to learn something right. You won't suddenly just get to spar right away. It takes a lot of patience and hard work to earn the right to wear bogu(armour). Typically, it takes 3-6 months of work to develope decent kihon(basics) to be able to safely spar with someone. Sparring is called Ji-geiko. You would need to have good footwork, good tenouchi(hold the shinai properly and strike without clubbing someone.) good kihon and a good attitude to earn your bogu. So, you see, there is a lot involved in learning kendo. It takes a very long time, even a lifetime, to become very good. Beginners learn waza slow first so they will develop good technique. If you try to be fast right away, you will never develop good skills. So, there is loads to work on. Kendo is for life. You can study it into the 80's and even 90's. I highly suggest you try it at least, if there is a dojo within 2-3 hours or less, away. Good, legit dojo are not common, so please don't expect one to be in your backyard. You take what you can get. Oh... I guess I'm biased. I forgot to mention about iaido and kenjutsu! Both of those arts should be given a chance if they are in your state as well, so you can choose what interests you best. Please be aware that legitimate iaido is rare and legitimate kenjutsu is even more rare. So, you may not get to even try those. So, if you are interested, please give your state and town that you are in and we can see what is in your state. I hope this helps a bit! Oh, and sorry everyone for such a long post! bow Kaoru Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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