[Qesomud]

erm
you are a cuddly woolly mammoth
freindly and knowledgable, but still quite deadly

As we Yanks say: Nice save, luv!

[siklop]

Since we are on Kata... I heard that when testing for Shodan the judges would like to see more Zanshin & intention with each kata. Should the feeling be exactly the same as when I'm pressuring an opponent? I'm going to ask my sensei tomorrow about Zanshin doing kata...not sure I completely understand that.

[Derrida]

Since we are on Kata... I heard that when testing for Shodan the judges would like to see more Zanshin & intention with each kata. Should the feeling be exactly the same as when I'm pressuring an opponent? I'm going to ask my sensei tomorrow about Zanshin doing kata...not sure I completely understand that.

Imho, Yes. Without both when you are pressuring someone, you may as well be saying, "I don't really intend to kill you and this is just for fun." Or, "I don't really care what I'm doing and if I die." And a samurai in the old days would take advantage of that lack of interest to kill you first. Both sides should show zanshin and intent in anything they do. Otherwise, you also may as well be saying, "please kill me" and "I really don't mean it."
That defeats the purpose of doing the kata, imho.

Think of it this way... If you were a samurai and didn't practice having that same zanshin and intent in your lessons whether you were the one pressuring the opponent or on the receiving end of that pressure or whatever waza you were doing, that could mean death for you later on, once you were outside the dojo and tangled with another samurai, if you didn't bother to practice these things in the dojo and thus didn't have either. It stands to reason the same is true for now.

Kata as I understand it, should help with one's zanshin and intent and it should transfer into one's shinai kendo practice. So, you can use that as your "outside the dojo" scenario with another samurai who is really now a kendoka facing you. What do you think will happen in ji-geiko if you don't have both zanshin and intent when putting pressure on the opponent?

Kata is one of the things I love and I take it very seriously...

Kaoru

[Louthcoombutt]

Since we are on Kata... I heard that when testing for Shodan the judges would like to see more Zanshin & intention with each kata. Should the feeling be exactly the same as when I'm pressuring an opponent? I'm going to ask my sensei tomorrow about Zanshin doing kata...not sure I completely understand that.

I wonder if this may depend on what federation you're in and who is judging. Here's what I can say based on my experience when I tested for shodan.

We weren't really told anything one way or another in terms of what the judges wanted to see in the kata. All that I remember being told was to not get flustered if I make a mistake or if my partner makes a mistake since the judges want to see how you react in that situation. There was one thing that distracted me a little. There were three younger kids who did the kata more like they were just going through the motions and I was a little surprised by this (one of them happened to be paired with me). But I digress.

I think that your seme in kata is going to be a little different than it would in shiai or jigeiko. With each kata, your moving with a different intent each time whether you're the uchidachi or shidachi. When you're the uchidachi, you pressure the shidachi to create an opening and you take it when you see/feel it. When you're the shidachi, you have to read the uchidachi's intentions and react accordingly with strong zanshin to claim dominance in the situation. In shiai or jigeiko, you pressure your opponent to find/make openings while reading your opponent at the same time. To put it simply, the kata allow you to practice two kinds of seme one at a time. This gives you the freedom to develop them in a simpler way and also demonstrates why you need to have an understanding of both.

I hope this makes sense and if it doesn't I'd be more than happy to try to explain what I mean further.

[Indoendris]

erm
you are a cuddly woolly mammoth freindly and knowledgable, but still quite deadly

One could say that you diplomatically evaded falling into a [very deep] hole with these comments.

I would rather say 'Chicken!'
Shame you don't play the armour game any more - it might be fun to play with you....... so to speak.
B

[Crilosajsamq]

I can usually get a group of beginners to roughly hack their way through the first 3 in kendo no kata in 1 evening. It wont be pretty and the footwork on sanbonme will fall apart, but it'll be roughly there.
I drill each side of the form with them; First uchidachi 10-15 times, then shidachi and then make them do the first form. Move on to the next, rinse and repeat.
Then when you ask them to do all 3 in succession, it falls apart again and you built it up again.
Nowadays, as we also have to teach the kihon kata, we'll do that until we get bored and then teach the first 2 kendo no kata.

[OccabsLam]

One could say that you diplomatically evaded falling into a [very deep] hole with these comments.

I would rather say 'Chicken!'
Shame you don't play the armour game any more - it might be fun to play with you....... so to speak.
B

you think you look like a chicken?
dont be so harsh on yourself

i finish working tuesday nights in a month or so hopefully
and the university (iai class) will be closed at some point for summer no doubt
i should make the effort to visit you some time, if you dont mind

[dodsCooggipsehome]

Debz: look forward to seeing you........

....seeing you cry with frustration, that is.

[BakerBonce]

aww you are too kind

[glagoliska]

Hi Bill, welcome to the world of teaching 2-person kata. It's hard enough when you have 2 people in the dojo that know them so that you can demonstrate them properly. It's a lot more frustrating when no-one else knows them and you have to describe both sides, then try and get people to fit them together.

[Evsltkzl]

Deb, loved your diplomatic comment lol too bad I can`t give ya more rep at this time!!!!
Depends how much time and effort to each dojo, person, puts into it. I had a very solid grounding in
it from Idaho Kendo Kai and Stroud Sensei! However not as much emphasis is put on it here in Japan.
So on a good day I can remeber up to number 5! 6 and 7 need a bit more practice. Haven`t learned the kotachi
forms yet! When I took my Ikkyu here in Japan, did get signaled out as having best kata presentation out of everyone!
Alot of it has to do with getting timing and distance right! Anyways good luck and just keep following up and working with them!

[delnisfernan]

Hi Bill, welcome to the world of teaching 2-person kata.

Hi Pete; Its bad enough when trying Kendo Kata or Kihon Waza....... even more fun with Tachi Uchi no Kurai........ don't you agree?
Either there is no meaning in what is occuring - or - other side of the coin... someone gets a little carried away and bruises ensue.

Bill

[dubballey]

Thank-you very much Kaoru & Shinkenshi.

So from your post, I will need to be in the correct mindset & not just going through the moves. So I will start practicing the correct mindset/mental-state in kata.

[anconueys]

I don't know whether it's worth me posting this. I want to give a perspective from someone who is new at kendo, that is at beginner level, and been exposed to some kata.

Firstly, when I saw it being performed, it was graceful and well timed. This sets the bar rather high.

Secondly, it's nothing like any other kata from karate or tae kwon do. And although I also have picked up iaido, I find kendo kata extremely challenging. It's not individual timing that's important. You need to work with another person and come together wordlessly to an agreed timing. This on top of trying to recall where you place feet and how.

I'm horrible at it. It fills my heart with dread. Innately as a musician I normally have a sense of timing and rhythm but with this there are seemingly no signals.

Compared to my very first lesson of kendo, kata is definitely information overload. And after learning the basic footwork and being thrown into the first kata, the biggest shock came when I got told to move my left foot forward. It was like rewiring my brain.

It might be frustrating teaching, but it's equally as frustrating to learn.

[mr.calisto]

It's a lot more frustrating when no-one else knows them and you have to describe both sides, then try and get people to fit them together.

Reminds me of one summer in Taiwan when my sensei's back was injured.

He asked me to go help out with a new program that just started at a local high school.

In addition to teaching only one side at a time first, I found it helpful to have all the new folks do one while I do the other as transition to pairing up... "I'm going to cut now, so everybody do the nuki-men..." yada yada yada.

I think it helped them to have all shidachi in line against one uchidachi and all uchidachi in line against one shidachi before they paired up.

Pairing with 25 shidachi at the same time was certainly amusing

Just thought I share....

[pobrierce]

Personally though, I also prefer teachers who cover sonkyo and kamae no kata (what the five kamaes are and how they relate) before they dive into kata proper.

I think that helps a lot. When I started my senpai taught me all the kamae, he would yell out a kamae and everyone would hold that kamae. He would then come around and critique everyone to make sure they did it the right way.

We did the kamae practice for two or three lessons before starting kata, and I had much easier time with learning kata then most of the beginners at my dojo now, who don't know what Jodan is.

If I was ever to teach people kata I would make sure they knew what the kamae were first.

[SpecialOFFER]

Thank-you very much Kaoru & Shinkenshi.

So from your post, I will need to be in the correct mindset & not just going through the moves. So I will start practicing the correct mindset/mental-state in kata.

You're welcome!

Yup! You gotta be in the proper mind-set whether or not you have an opponent in front of you(That is, practicing alone or with someone.) Pretend you are the one attacking someone first when practicing the uchidachi side. Then, pretend your life is in danger and you have to defend yourself when practicing the shidachi side.(Because this is what each side is about. One starts the fight, the other defends, then one wins, and one loses.) hehehe, It helps to have a really good imagination... That'll help with your zanshin and your intentions.

Just going through each technique would technically get you killed because you would not be thinking properly and be in the right mind-set.

Kaoru

[bromgeksan]

Hi Pete; Its bad enough when trying Kendo Kata or Kihon Waza....... even more fun with Tachi Uchi no Kurai........ don't you agree?
Either there is no meaning in what is occuring - or - other side of the coin... someone gets a little carried away and bruises ensue.

Bill

That just about sums it up

[FrereeDoulley]

Nowadays, as we also have to teach the kihon kata, we'll do that until we get bored and then teach the first 2 kendo no kata.

Excuse me, but what is the difference?

In a book I have read (Kendo Elements) it is somewhat vague about this and I was just wondering about that when I stumbled onto this thread today. It sounded to me like from what I read that there are ten "kendo kata", seven "long sword" forms and three "short." But what then are these "kihon kata"? And is that sometimes pronounced "nihon" because I thought my sensei said something about that last week. Or is that a third kind?

Of course maybe I misunderstood; I was panting from jumping back and forth and swinging for ten minutes.

Thanks and sorry for the intrusion into your thread.

[Garry Richardson]

Excuse me, but what is the difference?

But what then are these "kihon kata"?

http://www.mushinkankendo.com/kendo_kihon_waza.html