[ZIZITOPER]

Spent 90 minutes last night on Kendo Kata - - must have said 'No, your other left foot....' [or something akin] at least 30 times.

If it had been 'Night-one kendo' for any of them I would not have minded so much - - but some are at visit #20 or more and still mix up their limbs. All adults; all over 30; all reasonably intelligent [under normal circumstances].

I know that there is no 'magic bullet' or easy fix...........

Just venting frustration, really.

Bill

[Uninkipsyncp]

Well being an over thirty, reasonably intelligent (under normal circumstance) adult with no kata experience b4 kendo, I found even Kendo kata 1 difficult because i just couldn't get the purpose. After 4 years of training & reading the various threads on Nihon No Kendo Kata, I feel somewhat comfortable.

I agreed to watch a friend at work Tae kwon do practice last month. And they do these really long complex katas with 40 to 50 moves jumping and twirling & stuff...I'm thankful for the simplicity of the Kendo Katas.

[PlanTaleks]

I'm of the school of thought that thinks simple kata are easier to take something from and almost directly apply it to something else (bokuto to shinai e.g.). The long complex kata of the likes of kung fu do serve a purpose, even the likes of the jo kata we have to learn in aikido do too (but i like 'em ). But, they are long and tend to lose their "martialness" in favour of remembering the steps but then it's a case of practice practice practice until the shape is down then you can rub some bu on it to prevent it becoming a twirly whishy exercise in athleticism.

[mr.videomen]

I've done around 5 years of Karate, and I think Kendo kata are by far a lot simpler than Karate ones. There are like, less than 10 counts from start to finish, while I used to learn 30-40 counts for each kata in Karate.

Execution wise, of course, it's a lot more technical and confusing since you do it with a partner, but I didn't find it hard to learn at all. I have seen people getting absolutely confused though, and I don't get why either. I guess my past experience with longer, more complex kata did help a lot.

[gernica]

Spent 90 minutes last night on Kendo Kata - - must have said 'No, your other left foot....' [or something akin] at least 30 times.

If it had been 'Night-one kendo' for any of them I would not have minded so much - - but some are at visit #20 or more and still mix up their limbs. All adults; all over 30; all reasonably intelligent [under normal circumstances].

I know that there is no 'magic bullet' or easy fix...........

Just venting frustration, really.

Bill

Try less talking and more showing..

I found that the student responds better to mimicry rather than being told 'left this, uchiotoshi that'
They will have a million and one things whizzing through thier head, including

"why is sensei/sempai looking at me like that?"
"I step than move or move then step..or both at the same time ...arghhh"
"damn I got it wrong last time, I dont want to look a prat"

and even then they will do it wrong.

First show only mechanics... dont tie them up with "you do X because of Y"

then get them to relax... its fun.

oh.. and relax yourself.. If you are tense, they will be more so.

[Justlovemy]

oh.. and relax yourself.. If you are tense, they will be more so.

hehe
bill? relax?

[Usesdiums]

When I first started to assist in instructing kata, I tried to explain too much of what I was showing. Why you do this, the purpose of that, what your opponent is/will be doing. As said above, I've found that just working on the basic mechanics of the kata before anything is explained, seems to work best for me. Once the person I'm working with can perform the fundamentals of the kata, I'll then start getting into a bit of the technical explanations. Keep in mind that I'm in no way a Teacher, I'm just the highest ranking student in the class, and am asked to assist with the beginners from time to time - so take it for what it's worth.

[Aniplinipsync]

Try less talking and more showing..

I found that the student responds better to mimicry rather than being told 'left this, uchiotoshi that'
They will have a million and one things whizzing through thier head, including

"why is sensei/sempai looking at me like that?"
"I step than move or move then step..or both at the same time ...arghhh"
"damn I got it wrong last time, I dont want to look a prat"

and even then they will do it wrong.

First show only mechanics... dont tie them up with "you do X because of Y"

then get them to relax... its fun.

oh.. and relax yourself.. If you are tense, they will be more so.

I agree with you, but I'm going to go one step further with this...

When I was at the AUSKF summer camp in 2004, Hayashi-sensei, the hachidan who they brought in to teach us, talked about how to teach kata. He said to break it down in to pieces and don't try to teach a kata in it's entirety or you could really confuse students learning them. So, you could show them the entire kata so they know what it should look like as a finished whole, first. Then, take it and break in down in sections so they don't become overwhelmed, and then add from there, once they understand the first bit. Then, add another bit, etc, until they finally know the whole thing. I myself, prefer this approach. I find it hard to assimilate an entire kata all at once and get it right after I've been shown it. Honestly, there's a lot involved in learning kata, from the footwork up to how the blade angle of the bokuto should be, and more. I'm not surprised they didn't get their feet correct right away if you've been having them swallow a kata whole each time.

Also, it's a good idea to encourage home kata practice in between kata lessons. That will also help their skills get better.

Kaoru

[spoddersedpn]

I've done around 5 years of Karate, and I think Kendo kata are by far a lot simpler than Karate ones. There are like, less than 10 counts from start to finish, while I used to learn 30-40 counts for each kata in Karate.

IMHO, comparing solo and paired kata are like comparing apples and oranges though.

Part of the difficulty is people learn by watching...and when they don't get a good view of the instructor, they watch and mimic what other people are doing.

Problem with learning kendo kata, if you watch the other guy, esp in number 1, you will have the wrong foot forward because the other guy is in a different jodan.

While I haven't exactly "taught" kata more than a handful of times, from being on the receiving end, it seems like only teaching one side to EVERYBODY makes it less confusing...when you got half the students doing uchidachi and half doing shidachi, the mimicking alone will cause much confusing when they are doing it for the first time.

Personally though, I also prefer teachers who cover sonkyo and kamae no kata (what the five kamaes are and how they relate) before they dive into kata proper.

YMMV.

[E4qC1qQ5]

Personally though, I also prefer teachers who cover sonkyo and kamae no kata (what the five kamaes are and how they relate) before they dive into kata proper.

Absolutely. First teach the reiho and the kamae, then teach the gross mechanics of the particular kata.

[Heliosprime]

Using the mirrors can be good for people who have difficulty mimicking others. That way you can do it together, and see yourself as well as the other person, without having to translate left in front of you back to your own right, etc. Also some people will not understand that things are off, unless they can actually see themselves doing it.

[Alice_Medichi34]

Spent 90 minutes last night on Kendo Kata - - must have said 'No, your other left foot....' [or something akin] at least 30 times.

If it had been 'Night-one kendo' for any of them I would not have minded so much - - but some are at visit #20 or more and still mix up their limbs. All adults; all over 30; all reasonably intelligent [under normal circumstances].

I know that there is no 'magic bullet' or easy fix...........

Just venting frustration, really.

Bill

I'm sorry, Sensei! I promise to do better next time!

Mark

[obHQNsY2]

I'm sorry, Sensei! I promise to do better next time!

Mark

hehe, thats you told

just so you all know, still learning first taught t-rexi to kill stegasaurosusses
(how does one pluralise dinosaur names)
he looks like one too
oops sorry bill

but ive learnt stuff from all the advice giving, so keep it coming
im still learning how to be a sempai
but may have to brancvh out on my own soon

[carletoxtrs]

*LOL* @ Debz' post....

Sorry, luv, but I tried to give +rep... the computer didn't allow me.

[ketNavatutt]

then spread yourself around some more dammit

[MaickiP]

Many thanks for all of the responses - - except the last one from Debz/rottunpunk......
Not aacurate enough. Do I look more like a Steg or a Rex?? ........ carefully consider the answer, it could be costly!

2 seconds after I started this thread I thought 'Stop moaning and just deal with it...' ... and thus expected more responses in this vein. Therefore I thank every respondant for being 'gentle' with their posts [except Debz!]

I have started with reiho and kamae;- seemingly successfully.
Moved on to all doing only one side, then the other ; seemingly successfully.
Have broken the kata down into sections; seemingly successfully.
Considered and discussed 'distance'; seemingly successfully.

Put them in pairs and ask them to perform kata slowly and 'mechanically' - - [some] rat shit............!!

Perseverance required..........

[Borzopayn]

you could show a Daniel Day Lewis DVD to see if they get the idea ? ;-)

otherwise just keep plugging away

you try videoing them so they can see what they actually do compared to what they think they do - that sometimes works

good luck !

[HotDolly]

If is any consolation, I completely drew a blank during ipponmme in front of the whole class last Sunday I could see my aite (koban, who dwells on these forums) go wide eyed while in attempt to save face I tried to 'remember'.

It was a mental block under pressure. I think that these applies to complete noobies, if you keep picking at bits they seem to have a real hard time of it. Maybe it was the pressure to perform that got them.....

[justashonglefan]

Thanks to Phil and JCM for their sympathies and helpful hints.
Have not brought the video camera for a while..... must remember next time.

Just had a telephone conversation with one of them.
He states that he is afraid of actually making contact and doing someone a mischief..... this fear in the front of his mind is causing him to forget everything else.

As yet they are not really in range, and they are working at 'half speed' [really slow] - - but it preys on his mind.

This is a point I need to make to everyone, next time. Worry not [so much] about being in range........ just get through the 'choreography' and we can polish up at a later date.

Wait until I introduce Tachi Uchi no Kurai!!

[allmyflights]

Many thanks for all of the responses - - except the last one from Debz/rottunpunk......
Not aacurate enough. Do I look more like a Steg or a Rex?? ........ carefully consider the answer, it could be costly!

erm
you are a cuddly woolly mammoth
freindly and knowledgable, but still quite deadly