[suiviouse]

Hey, to me, the way you used the word, it meant cool. No big deal! I didn't think you were ignorant. Kids/young adults sometimes think anything that involves combat of any sort looks cool but forget the fact that injuries can occur though. Young people tend to not be so aware of this. (Look at all the crazy stuff on You Tube.) I know I wasn't when I was in my 20's or before. I'd love to take a stab at the pre-war kendo myself, to be honest, but I'm also not stupid. (For me it would be stupid, I mean. I'm tiny! I'm also not 20, darn it!) So, that's where I was coming from. I'm sorry I made you think I thought you were ignorant.

I don't do aikido... Do you mean practicing taking a throw? I did do TDK when I was a lot younger, and we had takedowns that were a lot of fun to do, but that was on thin studio carpet(not thick plush.). We never used the normal TDK mats. We had to learn how to fall correctly when being taken down. But, that's TDK, not kendo, so I don't know if that would cross over and be useful for kendo.

Kaoru

No, it's cool Kaoru... You didn't. I need to remind myself that people don't hear tones or see expressions when reading posts, I need to convey what I mean better. I joke and say wild stuff sometimes, but I mean well.
:~)

[fujitsusi]

I wish. I have had some pretty awesome moments...mostly getting my butt kicked by my sensei! LOL

Another student once posted a short video of him and sensei fighting on youtube shortly after he got into armor. I dont know if its still there or not since he freaked out when he got flamed for it. Hes much tougher now.

I will ask and see if he still has it or if its up somewhere.

Is this it?

[BCVB9SOc]

Not the best kendo players it would seem from a newbie perspective but after I put the video up on the post (and sorry folks, i meant to just make a link instead of this crazy big video in the middle of the post) I read the title "A long time ago while on a training trip to Japan, two young judoka are invited to try kendo..." Explains a lot... The guy in hakama at 1:03 in the vid seems to be a real kendo guy however.

This one is GREAT! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWQlx6CZMOo

Here's some pre-war stuff I found http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...rch_type=&aq=f

[aceriscoolon]

FUn to watch, but that was definitely not us. The music makes it so dramatic too

[Ndptbudd]

This is a good video of it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWQlx6CZMOo moro tori (i think its 'tiger mori') and izumi toshiro. They are going at it pretty mildly for the show but its an awesome fight regardless. I really liked the tsuki at the end.

This is another awesome fight with mochida sensei. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkWzm...eature=related

And Saimura Goro sensei. I think he was one of the 3 crows of kendo back in the day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THGtXO0yC9g

[jisee]

Ya, that old black and white show is awesome!!! And yes the tsuki and the end is Killer!!! I like how he BLASTS that shinai out of the other guys hand...
Watchin the others right now....very cool PinkSamurai!

[VistaULTIMATEdownloadaPro]

I'm not so sure about it being more dangerous, there are HEMA groups that practice using grappling and all that, and the injury rates are pretty low.

That because the grappling in HEMA is mediocre at best. As you would expect for such a relatively new activity. Kendoka 1kyu and above are also more fit and faster than the average hema student, and kendo matches are more high speed and agressive at this level and beyond. This means the potential for injury is raised if grappling is introduced. It also demands extra training in Judo based skills that other kendoka here have stated.

[ZAtlLVos]

I am new to the art/sport of kendo. I have been in class for around 2 months now and last night I was talking to one of our sensei's about Budo. He really shocked me when he told me that "before his time" in the very old school kendo matches, the match was not over until the loser had been taken down and his men pulled off of his head... He said they kicked, tripped, swept and did other combat Waza...?
Was this in the beginning of kendo? Was this common? Is there any pictures or media of any kind on this?

I too used to be quite enthusiastic about "full spectrum" pre WW2 Kendo. But Kendo as it is today presents a more focused challenge if you are interested in besting an opponent purely with shinai/sword based skill. A Kendo match today basically begins just beyond the range where swords touch and 'ends' where they cross. At this point Hiki waza can be used to allow one to retreat safely or attack as you disengage. There is plenty of skills to master here without the extra problem of adding grappling into the mix. Striking down the opponent with your sword alone is also a valid swordfighting tactic and is surely a more 'pure' form of Kendo. As you have just started kendo your immediate problem will be getting past your opponents sword first before getting into grappling range. Which will take time. If your still interested I suggest you join a Judo club as from what I understand, the attacks in "pre WW2 Kendo" are basically Jujutsu techniques integratred with Kendo, ( such as the low leg sweeps ).
But of course this will demand more time and effort. And you will still have the problem of locating other kendoka with similar cross training.

[Zebrabitch]

That because the grappling in HEMA is mediocre at best. As you would expect for such a relatively new activity. Kendoka 1kyu and above are also more fit and faster than the average hema student, and kendo matches are more high speed and agressive at this level and beyond. This means the potential for injury is raised if grappling is introduced. It also demands extra training in Judo based skills that other kendoka here have stated.

That's blatantly untrue unless you've seen every HEMA group out there. It's not as "Rare" as you think.

[Poreponko]

Do HEMA groups really need defending? They are a different breed. Whatever HEMA is, kendo it isn't. Doesn't kendo present enough challenges without the needless theatrics of grappling, leg sweeps, ripping off of the men?

[Creva4k]

Doesn't kendo present enough challenges without the needless theatrics of grappling, leg sweeps, ripping off of the men?

For some, yes. For others, no. For some, it's needless and theatrics, for others it's no more needless than tai-atari or tsuba-zeriai, and no more theatrics than kiai or maki-otoshi. There's a broad, broad spectrum between purely pragmatic techniques with no greater value than what they do, and techniques abstracted out of certain ideals, with less practical use but greater educational value. Everyone has to find that line that best fits them, and it will probably change as they get older.

I have no idea why this is such a hot button issue. It can be just as an excellent representation of kendo ideals to take an opponent down and choke him out with his dou as it is to hit debana kote.

[Glanteeignile]

Funny how this keeps popping up. It used to fascinate me too. If sensei weren't looking, I had a strong tendency too start pushing, shoving, and all kinds of play... To get some knowledge of throws and holds, I took up aikido about a year ago.
Paradoxally, this has lead me to clean up my kendo a lot. When I do kendo, I just do kendo, which means I try to become stronger at seme men. Doing aikido has helped me stop my urge to start grappling in kendo. Also, aikido has helped me too relax more in kendo, eg if somebody start pushing me, I don't feel as pressed as before, I can manage it.
It might have been mentioned before, but here are my thoughts on the subject:

- without being a VERY accomplished kendo player, mixing up grappling elements and kendo will only hold back your kendo progress. It's like throwing all kinds of attempted waza, without having decent understanding of seme: you still won't be able to break the center. I believe one needs focused training.
- the "prewar" guys everyone keeps referring to, were extremely skilled kendoka. (and I guess not all prewar people were) They could allow themselves sweeps and throws because their basic kihon was so good.
- you may want to throw & sweep because you wish to be "authentic". But you have to consider your shinai as a sword. Which means the shinai musn't touch your body when you try to grapple. I think that kind of technique is hard to make up on your own. So maybe serious study of some koryu is needed here.
- Kendo is practiced at full speed and full contact, not with cooperating partners as in aikido or ju-jitsu. Even in judo, people expect to be thrown (and of course, mats are used). Thus the use of grappling techniques in kendo (practiced on a serious level) is very dangerous. Nakakura sensei stated that in almost every practice under Nakayama Hakudo, someone passed out or had to be carried to the hospital.

[wepoiyub]

That's blatantly untrue unless you've seen every HEMA group out there. It's not as "Rare" as you think.

Did not say it was rare. I said HEMA grappling is relatively undeveloped.

[eFDMBwKH]

Excellent points O-sake.