[Kolovorotkes]

I am new to the art/sport of kendo. I have been in class for around 2 months now and last night I was talking to one of our sensei's about Budo. He really shocked me when he told me that "before his time" in the very old school kendo matches, the match was not over until the loser had been taken down and his men pulled off of his head... He said they kicked, tripped, swept and did other combat Waza...?
Was this in the beginning of kendo? Was this common? Is there any pictures or media of any kind on this?

[vNQmO2BF]

prewar kendo involved throws, sweeps and chokes. They still do the sweeps in the police taikai from what i understand, you can look up some videos of that. I dont think there are videos of prewar kendo, though there is some kata floating around IIRC.

[Blotassefesek]

prewar kendo involved throws, sweeps and chokes.

THAT IS SOOO BADASS! I love it!!!

Has anyone heard of any clubs doing this just for fun??? (Not as part of there training, just to play with some old waza?)

[appabessy]

THAT IS SOOO BADASS! I love it!!!

Has anyone heard of any clubs doing this just for fun??? (Not as part of there training, just to play with some old waza?)

It may be "badass" but it is dangerous. It's not even allowed anymore to be taught in the dojo now. I do think it would be neat to see a demonstration of it though. It would be educational in terms of how kendo has evolved through the years. Before WWII and the US occupation of Japan, those techniques were allowed, yes. Kenjutsu used those techniques, and kendo comes from kenjutsu. After the occupation and war ended, kendo was re-shaped to reflect a less combative nature in the art. I don't know much more about it though. I bet someone else here knows more and can elaborate on what I mean though. There also may be other information on pre-war kendo in the archives as well, in the history section.

There is at least one video floating around here on the forum of pre-war kendo in the archives. It wasn't as violent as I thought it would be, but it was definitely different.
But, that was just one video. I bet it could get pretty rough though. Too bad there isn't more footage that is available. I don't know where it is, though. I hate the search function... It never works for me.

I guess you wouldn't like getting slammed on the wood floor would you?? Know how much that could hurt? Owwwwww... Hurts just thinking about it. And, it was on a daily basis that they did that. The rate of injury was probably pretty high, I imagine.

Hope that helps!

Kaoru

[opergolon]

I'm not so sure about it being more dangerous, there are HEMA groups that practice using grappling and all that, and the injury rates are pretty low.

[dremucha]

So do low injury rates qualify Historical European Martial Artists as bad asses? Yes, kendo was practiced differently in the past (and still practiced at some places in Japan, I've heard). But, come on, if someone's goal is sword combat proficiency, what are they doing in kendo as practiced now anyway? Maybe they should instead introduce blades into K-1 or cage fighting. Not only more appropriate and but larger crowds, too.

[ronaldasten]

Maybe they should instead introduce blades into K-1 or cage fighting. Not only more appropriate and but larger crowds, too.

Thats all we need is the proliferation of more bad technique. Its bad enough to see that crap on you tube with Ninjers fight with "Kendo Sticks". Although it would be interesting to see the match over in a few seconds with a bloody forehead......Kinda like WWE

[Vjwkvkoy]

So do low injury rates qualify Historical European Martial Artists as bad asses? Yes, kendo was practiced differently in the past (and still practiced at some places in Japan, I've heard). But, come on, if someone's goal is sword combat proficiency, what are they doing in kendo as practiced now anyway? Maybe they should instead introduce blades into K-1 or cage fighting. Not only more appropriate and but larger crowds, too.

I practice with a guy who practices in police dojos and works in diplomatic security. We do take downs etc and it is quite fun, but only if someone else is up for it. He went for a sweep on me yesterday only to find that i took him down and wound up in side control where I used a darse on him. He keeps on wanting me to join him in japan to train with those guys.

There is an art to it (I spend 14+ hours a week on kendo, grappling and striking) so its not just backyard brawling. Pre-war waza isn't all grappling of course, but grappling and kendo are two sides of the same coin... (see the article on kumitachi). You really only need a basic understanding of how to sweep someone.

For the original poster, look at http://kenshi247.net/blog/category/series/prewarkendo/ for all sorts of pre-war waza (many of which are still recognizable today). Grappling is just a minor portion.

For example I preformed Orishiki Do on the same guy the other day for fun. Heck that waza is more or less still in kata number 7.

[Promalada]

The kendo group i train with does those techniques actually. My sensei trained in Haga Dojo in Tokyo and they are a pre-war kendo dojo. Choking out your opponent, ripping off their men, foot sweeps, throws, etc are just a part of are normal practice.

Its pretty rough sometimes, but its not really painful to get thrown around actually. Its more aggravating that you got choked out or had your men pulled off. But that just makes you train harder so it doesnt happen again. We all give as good as we get and have a blast doing it!

[velichay]

It may be "badass" but it is dangerous.
I guess you wouldn't like getting slammed on the wood floor would you??
Kaoru

Sorry everyone, please forgive me.... Should not have said "Badass", it sounded ignorant. I should have said "It looks like it would be a lot of fun if a friend was up for it, and both where not at a beginner level and after the proper training and instruction and it was done in a controlled, safe environment..

and Kaoru, slammed on the floor isn't too bad if you have been doing your ukemi.....lol...

[Unlopssesuj]

The kendo group i train with does those techniques actually. My sensei trained in Haga Dojo in Tokyo and they are a pre-war kendo dojo. Choking out your opponent, ripping off their men, foot sweeps, throws, etc are just a part of are normal practice.

Its pretty rough sometimes, but its not really painful to get thrown around actually. Its more aggravating that you got choked out or had your men pulled off. But that just makes you train harder so it doesnt happen again. We all give as good as we get and have a blast doing it!

Very cool pinksamurai!!! Do you have any pictures?

[saruxanset]

Sorry everyone, please forgive me.... Should not have said "Badass", it sounded ignorant. I should have said "It looks like it would be a lot of fun if a friend was up for it, and both where not at a beginner level and after the proper training and instruction and it was done in a controlled, safe environment..

and Kaoru, slammed on the floor isn't too bad if you have been doing your ukemi.....lol...

Hey, to me, the way you used the word, it meant cool. No big deal! I didn't think you were ignorant. Kids/young adults sometimes think anything that involves combat of any sort looks cool but forget the fact that injuries can occur though. Young people tend to not be so aware of this. (Look at all the crazy stuff on You Tube.) I know I wasn't when I was in my 20's or before. I'd love to take a stab at the pre-war kendo myself, to be honest, but I'm also not stupid. (For me it would be stupid, I mean. I'm tiny! I'm also not 20, darn it!) So, that's where I was coming from. I'm sorry I made you think I thought you were ignorant.

I don't do aikido... Do you mean practicing taking a throw? I did do TDK when I was a lot younger, and we had takedowns that were a lot of fun to do, but that was on thin studio carpet(not thick plush.). We never used the normal TDK mats. We had to learn how to fall correctly when being taken down. But, that's TDK, not kendo, so I don't know if that would cross over and be useful for kendo.

Kaoru

[HotboTgameR]

I'm not so sure about it being more dangerous, there are HEMA groups that practice using grappling and all that, and the injury rates are pretty low.

Well, you could be right, but I was thinking that it might be because of the more aggressive waza that is used.

Kaoru

[imnaone]

For example I preformed Orishiki Do on the same guy the other day for fun. Heck that waza is more or less still in kata number 7.

What is Orishiki Do please?

And, thank you hl1978 and Pinksamurai for posting all of this very interesting information on pre-war kendo! It is nice to know that someone has actually gotten to practice it. I didn't think anyone still taught that(I was told it wasn't actually taught, but that some sensei still knew the techniques. Maybe I misunderstood the person who told me, I dunno. That was 5 years ago, that I was told this.) anymore.

Likewise, I would also like to see photos and if possible, videos of this. I am also sure the rest of the forum would be VERY interested in seeing this stuff in action. Would it be rude to ask if either one or both of you could get permission to videotape some ji-geiko of this in your dojos to post here?

And another question to both of you... How DO you learn these techniques? Do you learn to fall a certain way, in order to be able to receive a take down or leg sweep? How do you keep injuries from happening on a daily basis? I assume there is a correct and incorrect way to do these things. I am just curious... Most of us will never see anything like this. Thank you for entertaining my questions. Not meaning to pester of course!

Kaoru

[Zptmsemk]

What is Orishiki Do please?

As your opponent goes for men, you drop down on one knee and strike their do. It is kind of like kata #7, except you drop down to cut do instead of draw through and go down on one knee.

And another question to both of you... How DO you learn these techniques? Do you learn to fall a certain way, in order to be able to receive a take down or leg sweep? How do you keep injuries from happening on a daily basis? I assume there is a correct and incorrect way to do these things. I am just curious... Most of us will never see anything like this. Thank you for entertaining my questions. Not meaning to pester of course! For the grappling stuff, I have done judo in the past and I currently practice Brazillian jujitsu. I know how to fall properly as a result. Accidents can happen of course, but we usually aren't going 100%.

As for the waza, I can't guarantee that I am doing it 100% accurate. Its more just for fun once in a while.

[Seasmillets]

I wish. I have had some pretty awesome moments...mostly getting my butt kicked by my sensei! LOL

Another student once posted a short video of him and sensei fighting on youtube shortly after he got into armor. I dont know if its still there or not since he freaked out when he got flamed for it. Hes much tougher now.

I will ask and see if he still has it or if its up somewhere.

[Sotmoigma]

As far as learning to fall, we just do it. On occasion sensei has taught students without any background in martial arts or any type of ukemi experience on how to fall.

The rest of the stuff he teaches individually when we fight with him based on our experience and if he thinks we are ready. The same goes for learning to fight Nito or with a shoto.

[hieklyintinee]

It is dangerous or not? there is no record of any fatality about old Kendo. Check out Vovinam, they throw people on wooden floor too. Technically, everything in life is dangerous that include eating. Sometimes, it is more interesting just to go out of our shell and explore new thing.

Hope this help

[gIWnXYkw]

So do low injury rates qualify Historical European Martial Artists as bad asses? Yes, kendo was practiced differently in the past (and still practiced at some places in Japan, I've heard). But, come on, if someone's goal is sword combat proficiency, what are they doing in kendo as practiced now anyway? Maybe they should instead introduce blades into K-1 or cage fighting. Not only more appropriate and but larger crowds, too.

Don't know what you're getting at. All I was saying is that the idea that people getting hurt all the time being the reason for some of stuff being taken out doesn't really make sense to me since other people do similar things without many issues.

[weO1bVp1]

We have a couple of members that are on hiatus due to injuries.

None of them kendo related.

One guy busted his foot playing cricket, another one busted his big toe with a sledge hammer.

I think the worst injury we have had was one guy got really dehydrated and ended up with the dry heaves. He didnt drink enough water apparently before practice.

We did have one concussion, but that was due to an idiot kohei who wouldn't follow instructions and liked to cut all the way thru with a men strike repeatedly during uchikome geiko. The concussed member is back with us now, the guy who did it to him is not.

Other than that, we just get the standard bumps and bruises and tsuki hickies.