[preachadaq]

Need some advice here.

I have a teacher that teaches a group of students (not a sensei yet—a dan away) who seems to have told me to not come back to the club.

Now, I know he technically has the ability to do this, but he did this because he was upset about something I said to him. First, let me explain the club: not a dojo, takes place in a basketball court at a local university. Very laid back, friendly atmosphere. People arrive late, leave early, occasionally he brings beer into the room after practice—this is rare, though. Just trying to point out this isn’t a “serious business” Kendo set up.

What I called him on:

First, he goes absolutely berserk when anybody from outside the club comes to watch/practice with us. We have an eight-degree dan coming, and I’m not arguing that this isn’t a big deal. However, the past practice he dedicated the entire time to teach us etiquette, making the comment, “I’m very stressed. He’ll look at you guys, and judge my teaching.” He then, the next day, sent out a long email point by point telling us what we need to do—such as bowing when entering/leaving the room, noting wearing T-shirts that show, removing a small red string from a shinai—yes, things that we shouldn’t be doing, but he has rarely, and often never complains about—and then a lot of things that are very foreign to us, such as responding, “Hai!” to everything, etc, etc.

The reality is we’ve either never been taught etiquette, or it isn’t enforced. I pointed out he’s being fake here by fussing at us and trying to fix all this in forty-eight hours to prove to the sensei he’s a good teacher, because if that’s the case he really hasn’t taught us well, and that maybe he shouldn’t have ran the risk of inviting the sensei if he was so stressed about how we’d come across. It seems like a logical argument.

His response was a complete rebuttal—that he has said these things, but didn’t want to be “hardass” or get in arguments with beginners, so he didn’t press the etiquette—and that if I didn’t think he was a good teacher, he wasn’t worth my time and I need to find another sport and not bother coming anymore.

Now, I’m a student with bogu that’s been in Kendo off and on throughout two years, due to an injury and conflicts with a class. I’m also the last student of the university he’s using a room from, so I think it’s kind of silly for him to pull that, because it’s unlikely they are going to have the room much longer, unless another student joins. Regardless, I’m willing to not return, but did I overstep my line by pointing this out to him? I was mature in my emails, and expressed at the end after his comment that I, “Didn’t think he was an inadequate teacher, just that if you want something to be done right, you teach it and enforce it to be right from the first day, and don’t fix it forty eight hours.”

Well, that’s it, then. I’m not going to swallow how I feel about his failure to teach etiquette, and his silliness whenever new people come, but am willing to put myself up to judgment if I was out of place calling him on it.

And if this incites anger, please address it respectfully. Thanks!

[elektikakass]

You want us to say whether we think you overstepped your bounds? Generally speaking, I think it's understandable for a "junior sensei" to want to go over ettiquette before an 8.dan visits, and while you may technically be correct that if he cared he should have done that before, it's a little petty to call him on it now since you appear to recognize why it might matter. We all make mistakes. Since you ask for advice, if I were you, whatever you plan to do going forward, I'd call him and apologize for questioning his teaching and reiterate that you have appreciated all he's done over the past few years. In my opinion, life is too short and the Kendo community is too small for you to carry a grudge or burn bridges. Up to you though.

[Munccoughe]

Kendo begins and ends with rei, as they say, so I can understand why a) your instructor was stressing over it, and b) why that might be one of the first things a visiting sensei might notice. While it's good not to be sheep and call out a teacher / instructor on things you think are wrong, remember that he is teaching for free.

[Nundduedola]

Going by your story, you were 100% in the right. Which is why I'm reminded there are always two sides to a story.

[Lunims]

Was I out of place? Yes.



Darn-it, message is too short.

[Stivenslivakovishhhs]

Going by your story, you were 100% in the right. Which is why I'm reminded there are always two sides to a story.

I disagree

First, he goes absolutely berserk when anybody from outside the club comes to watch/practice with us. We have an eight-degree dan coming, and I’m not arguing that this isn’t a big deal. However, the past practice he dedicated the entire time to teach us etiquette, making the comment, “I’m very stressed. He’ll look at you guys, and judge my teaching.” He then, the next day, sent out a long email point by point telling us what we need to do—such as bowing when entering/leaving the room, noting wearing T-shirts that show, removing a small red string from a shinai—yes, things that we shouldn’t be doing, but he has rarely, and often never complains about—and then a lot of things that are very foreign to us, such as responding, “Hai!” to everything, etc, etc.

I think you need to be aware that the things you have been asked to do in while visiting sensei is present are things that most of us do without been told to. e.g Rei as u enter/leave. Answering with hai etc.

If u havent been taught these, then fine, but considering you've been doing kendo for 2 years, I'd say you've been exposed to these things before (at other dojo, tournaments, grading etc)

Now, I know he technically has the ability to do this, but he did this because he was upset about something I said to him. First, let me explain the club: not a dojo, takes place in a basketball court at a local university. Very laid back, friendly atmosphere.

Also, just because u train in a gymnasium does not mean its not a dojo. And you should treat it as such

My advice is apologise to your instructor. As mentioned earlier, the kendo world is a small one, the more friends you have the better

[Duseshoug]

Calling him 'fake' was probably a very bad way of bringing up the subject. I think you should apologize.

[WhiliaStelt]

Need some advice here.

I have a teacher that teaches a group of students (not a sensei yet—a dan away) who seems to have told me to not come back to the club.

Now, I know he technically has the ability to do this, but he did this because he was upset about something I said to him. First, let me explain the club: not a dojo, takes place in a basketball court at a local university. Very laid back, friendly atmosphere. People arrive late, leave early, occasionally he brings beer into the room after practice—this is rare, though. Just trying to point out this isn’t a “serious business” Kendo set up.

What I called him on:

First, he goes absolutely berserk when anybody from outside the club comes to watch/practice with us. We have an eight-degree dan coming, and I’m not arguing that this isn’t a big deal. However, the past practice he dedicated the entire time to teach us etiquette, making the comment, “I’m very stressed. He’ll look at you guys, and judge my teaching.” He then, the next day, sent out a long email point by point telling us what we need to do—such as bowing when entering/leaving the room, noting wearing T-shirts that show, removing a small red string from a shinai—yes, things that we shouldn’t be doing, but he has rarely, and often never complains about—and then a lot of things that are very foreign to us, such as responding, “Hai!” to everything, etc, etc.

The reality is we’ve either never been taught etiquette, or it isn’t enforced. I pointed out he’s being fake here by fussing at us and trying to fix all this in forty-eight hours to prove to the sensei he’s a good teacher, because if that’s the case he really hasn’t taught us well, and that maybe he shouldn’t have ran the risk of inviting the sensei if he was so stressed about how we’d come across. It seems like a logical argument.

His response was a complete rebuttal—that he has said these things, but didn’t want to be “hardass” or get in arguments with beginners, so he didn’t press the etiquette—and that if I didn’t think he was a good teacher, he wasn’t worth my time and I need to find another sport and not bother coming anymore.

Now, I’m a student with bogu that’s been in Kendo off and on throughout two years, due to an injury and conflicts with a class. I’m also the last student of the university he’s using a room from, so I think it’s kind of silly for him to pull that, because it’s unlikely they are going to have the room much longer, unless another student joins. Regardless, I’m willing to not return, but did I overstep my line by pointing this out to him? I was mature in my emails, and expressed at the end after his comment that I, “Didn’t think he was an inadequate teacher, just that if you want something to be done right, you teach it and enforce it to be right from the first day, and don’t fix it forty eight hours.”

Well, that’s it, then. I’m not going to swallow how I feel about his failure to teach etiquette, and his silliness whenever new people come, but am willing to put myself up to judgment if I was out of place calling him on it.

And if this incites anger, please address it respectfully. Thanks!

In my none-too-humble opinion... Yeah, you were out of line. High dan or not, if he's the instructor, then you play by his rules. If you can't respect his rules, then I could see why he wouldn't want you to practice. Also, it's not that hard to bow, say "hai", or mind your attire; I don't think he was asking anything you couldn't at least attempt to learn in 48 hours. For your own sake; you'll be the one embarrassed when you're rude to the visiting sensei, after all. As an aside, though, you are probably wasting your time there, anyhow. If the man can't teach basic etiquette, then he shouldn't be teaching kendo. As for not cutting the red strings that the shinai come packaged with... that's sorta kendo 101... wtf.

[RarensussyRen]

Email is generally never a good way to communicate when you are in disagreement with someone. Some college clubs are like what you described unless their instructor places the importance on reiho. Generally most college students don't think of having a long term kendo career. Getting bogu and particpating in tournaments sometimes is placed more importance than reiho, basics, etc.. I agree that he should review reiho in a more constructive way and tell the students the importance of reiho. Now like you said it seems he is trying to do it only for the puposes of not looking like a bad instructor. If many of your students are still new and not in bogu than I don't think the 8th Dan will be insulted or disappointed as long as the students try their best. Like you said it is a college club and he is an instructor (maybe college age) not Sensei so I doubt the 8th Dan is going into the practice with exceedingly high expectations. Even though he does share some of the blame for not teaching them reiho I would not debate him or say he is trying to cover his butt. Maybe some wording that we don't have too many students so lets be careful not to scare them off or something like that.

[Sheefeadalfuh]

If unacceptable behavior is tolerated long enough it can become acceptable within the group, which is why you're feeling aggrieved. But you knew it was unacceptable, so you need to realise he has to step it up given the level of visitor.

Is 48 hours too much to ask, probably if you're a bunch of slackers , but are you passing on the chance of practicing with an 8th dan?

You may be right but it's up to you to apologise, but perhaps from this day forward etiquette is followed always then there wouldn't be a problem.

[irrawnWab]

Yes, you were out of line by calling him out like that. This is kendo, what the instructor says goes. Furthermore, is it really that difficult to at least try to learn the etiquette since you don't seem to practice it at all? Rather than getting miffed that all of a sudden you have to raise the discipline from zero to 100 is something you should've seen coming. If you're serious about continuing kendo, how do you think it is elsewhere? Do you think that other clubs are going to be as lax as yours? Think about it, if you were to continue as you have been in front of this visiting sensei, what do you think they'll do? Chances are they'll disregard you all as a rag-tag group of wannabe kenshi who can't even get basic etiquette right. You'll then end up with a not so flattering reputation. Best thing you can do is apologize, learn the etiquette, and show the sensei that you all are worth their time.

That being said, the person teaching you all should've been emphasizing etiquette from the start. As b8amack said, if he can't teach etiquette, he shouldn't teach kendo. Not cutting off the red strings screams clueless kenshi. It also means you haven't even prepared the slats properly and I'd be worried about splinters flying around when you practice. If you can't take care of the small details, your kendo will become stagnant and you won't improve. Personally, I think it's time for a serious club overhaul. Start fresh, ask your teacher to emphasize etiquette and have the same expectations as any other dojo. If people don't like it, then tell them it's what is expected at any other dojo so they will either get used to it or leave. Simple as that.

[IvJlNwum]

I think the timing of the statement makes it seem defensive, but it's true even in the best of circumstances: why should you waste your time if you don't trust your instructor to do a good job? Think about that outside of the situation for a moment. If, on the other hand, you do trust him, then why are you taking him to task?

[wsbizwsa]

It's actually not uncommon to be more loose with the formalities during the usual class and then get more strict about it when you have notice that a high level sensei is coming to visit. I've seen rokudans and godans do it so I wouldn't blame your instructor for doing the same thing. If you use strong words like "fake" then yeah, you were out of line. You should make allowance for the fact that this person is not a sensei and has no sensei to rely on for teaching related advice. OTOH, the instructor is out of line to tell you not to come back over such a small thing. Kendo is for everyone, and imo, we shouldn't exclude people from kendo just because we had an argument with them or for some other philosophical or political disagreements. If I were you, even if I didn't plan on going back to his dojo, I'd at least apologize and move on.

[teodaschwartia]

Yes, you were out of line by calling him out like that. This is kendo, what the instructor says goes. Furthermore, is it really that difficult to at least try to learn the etiquette since you don't seem to practice it at all? Rather than getting miffed that all of a sudden you have to raise the discipline from zero to 100 is something you should've seen coming. If you're serious about continuing kendo, how do you think it is elsewhere? Do you think that other clubs are going to be as lax as yours? Think about it, if you were to continue as you have been in front of this visiting sensei, what do you think they'll do? Chances are they'll disregard you all as a rag-tag group of wannabe kenshi who can't even get basic etiquette right. You'll then end up with a not so flattering reputation. Best thing you can do is apologize, learn the etiquette, and show the sensei that you all are worth their time.

That being said, the person teaching you all should've been emphasizing etiquette from the start. As b8amack said, if he can't teach etiquette, he shouldn't teach kendo. Not cutting off the red strings screams clueless kenshi. It also means you haven't even prepared the slats properly and I'd be worried about splinters flying around when you practice. If you can't take care of the small details, your kendo will become stagnant and you won't improve. Personally, I think it's time for a serious club overhaul. Start fresh, ask your teacher to emphasize etiquette and have the same expectations as any other dojo. If people don't like it, then tell them it's what is expected at any other dojo so they will either get used to it or leave. Simple as that.

Ok, so how should he have worded it (or could he have worded it at all without stepping out of line?)

Anyway, I got the impression from the OP's post that he was upset that ettiqutte wasn't taught sooner (as in, perhaps the OP didnt realize that ettiqutte was so important untill just recently when he found out that the 8th dan would be arriving?) Also you can't assume that the OP went to tournaments or other dojos either... 2 years is a long time but he did say he/she was there on and off.

Unless this is some kind of cultural Japanese thing, the only way I can see that he over stepped bounds was that he called him "fake". And the way it was worded in general. Thats just my opinion.

Do you guys think its wrong for him to say anything at all to the instructor about this even if it's done in a polite, mature way? (with no insults?)

If so, all I can say is that it must be a Japanese culture thing. You know- authority is unquestionable, no matter who it is thats in authority. Thats fine if you're in Japan talking to a Japanese person, but... since the OP said hes from the U.S. in his profile I'm assuming thats not the case. (I'm talking about outside the dojo in this case)

That being said, how can rei be left out of Kendo with Kendo still being kendo? How can you do Kendo without rei? From what I understand its very important!!

Of course I'm a n00b myself, so maybe I just don't know enough about kendo. But if hes not a Sensei, you talk to him about it politily (sounds to me like you insulted him with the word fake) then I have trouble seeing the problem.

If I'm wrong in this, I do apologize.

[newshep]

If you use strong words like "fake" then yeah, you were out of line.

First, thank you for all the replies on this. I'm still at where I was at the beginning--maybe we were both wrong about things.

Also, about the red string--it's something that I tied around the tip of my shinai from day one. It isn't really noticeable. He (apparently) noticed it once and told me I should take it off, where I apparently replied "It's special." It sounds like something I would say, but I don't remember it. Anyway, he's never said anything about it since whenever that was. I feel like if it was really that large of an infringement he should have just laid down the rules at once, instead of letting me (and the other kids) slide on so many things.

I don't think I used it too strongly. Here is exactly how I used it:

"I'm having a hard time understanding why we need to change everything about our routine when a sensei comes. Yes, I'm happy that we are having someone of a high rank, it's special, but sending a list of stuff we need to fix in three days is overboard, especially when we have been doing it for two years without you fussing about it. We're being completely fake. If you are worried about what he is going to say about your teaching, it would have been better not to have taken the risk by inviting him."

I, at least, don't find that disrespectful or rude--just a straightforward explanation of how I feel and why.

[mArVHDO6]

This situation is a little like having to sit straight and put a napkin in your lap when an older relative visits for dinner. It's not fake. It's showing that you care enough to pay attention to details that matter to your visitor, even if it isn't the normal way you would do it. Furthermore, it's a learning opportunity for you.

It's not uncommon for such a visiting sensei to spend an hour or two on etiquette at the start of the seminar anyways, especially when dealing with a bunch of beginners. You can also expect a good long lesson on the basics you think you already know.

I agree with the majority - you are in the wrong here. You got rebuked, and rightfully so, by your instructor. Now you're making it worse by whining about it in public. I say zip your lip, do as your instructor asks and take advantage of this fabulous chance to learn from a very high level instructor.

[flowersnewaho]

Is it that much of a leap of faith to assume he interpreted "We're being completely fake" as "You're teaching us to be completely fake"?

"If you are worried about what he is going to say about your teaching, it would have been better not to have taken the risk by inviting him"

And I'm sorry, while you may not agree with him, you do not tell him how to run the class. In this context, yes, you were out of place.

[Markdogas]

This situation is a little like having to sit straight and put a napkin in your lap when an older relative visits for dinner. It's not fake. It's showing that you care enough to pay attention to details that matter to your visitor, even if it isn't the normal way you would do it. Furthermore, it's a learning opportunity for you.

It's not uncommon for such a visiting sensei to spend an hour or two on etiquette at the start of the seminar anyways, especially when dealing with a bunch of beginners. You can also expect a good long lesson on the basics you think you already know.

I agree with the majority - you are in the wrong here. You got rebuked, and rightfully so, by your instructor. Now you're making it worse by whining about it in public. I say zip your lip, do as your instructor asks and take advantage of this fabulous chance to learn from a very high level instructor.

Well, I'm really not whining. I'm just honestly trying to get feedback on the situation, thanks.

And you are missing the point--he basically told me not to come back. So I can't take advantage of this "very high level instructor."

[Beedcardabeme]

Well, I'm really not whining. I'm just honestly trying to get feedback on the situation, thanks.

And you are missing the point--he basically told me not to come back. So I can't take advantage of this "very high level instructor."

Well..if you apologize, then you may still be able to do so.

[sesWaipunsaws]

For what my opinion is worth. I think you were in the wrong for calling out this guy for his short comings. He is prolly very nervous about the visiting sensei and rightly so if he as not taught the things he should have. As long as he is the instructor and you are the student you should do what he says, barring its nothing dangerous or illegal. That being said. If hes not taught these things, i wonder how good this school is and whether e is a legit teacher. Lets say this mess never happened. My advice would be to seek another school if possible. It does not sound like he is doing a proper job of teaching what he should. maybe a change is in order and for the best. But if you agree to be the student you should do as teacher says, Period.