[CsFLhGNp]

Our headmaster - Iwami-soke - is big into his meditation and gets us to join in when he can. Here's a pic of an impromptu alfresco moment

You have an interesting posture for Zazen, Scott. Is it called 'Buddha propping up the Bar' position?

[Obenuearema]

As I don't drink, I don't prop bars up at any time - but as it is a Friday and I am in a good mood (off hang gliding tomorrow), I will let that one slide.

[courlerwele]

I didn't think they made kites big enough for lads like you.

[Bletlemof]

Just about to buy one.

Spitfire wingspan - 11.2m
My glider's wingspan - 10.7m

Heh

[idertedype]

I learned to fly gliders a few years ago and with the parachute on I was very close to being over the weight limit for the plane (K13). If one of the fatty instructors was on duty when I was flying, I had to wait until a skinny one was available or else the wings'd be ripped off or something!

[jurhoonee]

...or the glider was made from chocolate?

[frequensearules]

Spitfire wingspan - 11.2m
My glider's wingspan - 10.7m

Hamilcar wingspan = 20.7m. This should just about give enough lift . . . .

[yahyynzer]

[Spitfire wingspan - 11.2m]

Actually Scott, the wingspan of the Supermarine Spitfire is quoted by numerous authors as being 11.23M.

[ñàéäèíã]

It has been suggested to me that this would be an interesting read to mention here:
http://www.amazon.com/Zen-at-War-Dai.../dp/0834804050

-Beth

[CibQueersejer]

It has been suggested to me that this would be an interesting read to mention here:
http://www.amazon.com/Zen-at-War-Dai.../dp/0834804050

-Beth

Beth, that would be another thread altogether and a very sensitive one at that. Frankly, I think the forum would be better off not to even go there.

[Pete789]

I used to be a serious meditator, but recently I haven't had the time (or I got lazy...cause I really should make the time). Its much easier when you're near a spiritual community (sangha) too.

I used to do morning and evening without fail (maybe about 3 hours a day) and I did that for years.

Just as a word of advice:
You really shouldn't start off with shikantaza because its a much more advanced form of meditation. Usually beginners never do it right. Even after 2 or 3 years of sitting mornings and evenings (an hour or more) some people still dont do shikantaza. If you are serious about the spirtual aspect of it (rather than just a stress release) you should get a spirtual teacher.. They usually tell you when you've gotten to the point where you can properly do shikantaza. Again, otherwise you may not actually be doing it right (and you may not get anything out of it). If there arn't any Zen spitual teachers that live in your area thats ok. My spirtual teacher is a 5-6 hour car ride from where I live.

Focusing on the breath (counting or whatever) is the best way to start if you never did meditation before...and its something you can start without a teacher. As odd as it sounds, theres a certain way to do it right too. I'd recommend "The Three Pillars of Zen" by Kaplea Roshi because it explains how to do it really well. Its especially good if your into the spiritual aspect of it.

Uhm, short term... uhm, well again you may not be doing it right if you are starting out and doing shikantaza so you probably arn't getting any of this...I still focus on my breath but I usually feel really relaxed, and have a clearer mind after doing it. If I'm stressing out about work, then after meditating for a little bit I will have dropped it and felt better. Plus I feel more alive...more in the present. But thats now a days... I cant remember what it was like in the first few months after I started meditating because that was over 8 years ago or something like that. It may have been different.

Seriously though, seriously, don't start out with Shikantaza, not unless you have a zen teacher that says you should. Otherwise you are not really doing zen.

And you're right, don't focus on the short term benefits, because ironically they will come better when you don't focus on them.

Its funny though...everyone here (hopefully) knows that you can't do kendo from a book. Zen is kinda the same. You can start out from a book if you are desperate, but ultimately if you want to really be serious about it you need to have a spiritual teacher and a sangha (community).


OOPS I just noticed that the origninal OP said he/she doesnt do shikantaza after all but focuses on the breath. Good.

Anyway I've gotten A LOT out of it. But hahah its hard to put in words what I get/got out of it long term.

[Xxmlqevq]

You really shouldn't start off with shikantaza because its a much more advanced form of meditation.

I don't think there's any reason to discourage someone from a certain meditative technique. That seems like me telling you, "Don't try judo, it's too difficult and you wouldn't be any good at it." Just as with martial arts, different styles work better for different people. At least with this, it's not likely someone can hurt themselves practicing meditation.

[AlexanderPalamayr]

I'm not into the spiritual side of things because I don't believe in such things (I'm a fan of Stephen Batchelor's ideas) and I don't believe people who say they have a special understanding of such things either! I've read many science papers about its apparent positive effects on the brain, mainly slowing or even reversing the loss of neural grey matter (loss of which is, in severe cases, implicated in dementia and at best to age-related deficits that we all fall foul of). One of the things I noted was it dosen't really matter what type of meditation one does-Shikantaza, counting breaths, mokuso, TM, prayer, counting sheep-they all had a similar effect on the brain (the problem is finding people for study who've practised consistently and for long enough in the various types of meditation so variety was rather narrow). The only difference between all these forms of meditation was in the brain region activations and deactivations, but we don't really know what these mean and what effect they have long term. So I'm happy just counting breaths for the time being.

[Krruqgwt]

I don't think there's any reason to discourage someone from a certain meditative technique. That seems like me telling you, "Don't try judo, it's too difficult and you wouldn't be any good at it." Just as with martial arts, different styles work better for different people. At least with this, it's not likely someone can hurt themselves practicing meditation.

Simply put, shikantaza is not a different technique in the way Judo is a different technique compared to kendo. Shikintaza is an ADVANCED type of meditation within the Zen method/technique.

I don't know Judo all that well, but I am sure that there are advanced techniques within the Judo system that beginners can't expect to learn (well) on the first day. I think in kendo, most people don't learn how to tsuki someone full speed on their first day in bogu either, right? (heck, beginners don't get into bogu on their first day either).

In Zen you don't go back and forth between meditation methods. You stick with one for awhile before you're ready to move onto a more difficult one. Usually, the two (more advanced) methods are either koan study or shikantaza, and a spiritual teacher will help you choose one depending in your temperament, but only when you have built up enough joriki, or concentration.

If I came across as a little bit arrogant, I apologize for that. As a side note, I'm not super great at Zen...I'm kind of terrible at it actually. I just know what my teacher has told me, and what others who have been doing it for 30 plus years have said. I have been around a community of really really serious Zen practioners (people who dedicate their lives full time to it...most just vocationally, but I have also been around monks/nuns). I have read authentic books about it (authentic as in, again, by people who dedicate their lives to it full time). So I am just saying what I have heard.

I have heard of people starting koan practice (and probably shikantaza) after a minimum of a year, but that usually is after going to several meditation retreats (sesshins) which is where you meditate for 10 hours a day for 2-7 days. And it is also with advice or help of a spiritual teacher. But maybe some spiritual teachers are easier, I don't know.

I guess I get a bit riled up because so many people who think of Zen think its some kind of fluffy, wishy washy thing. Its a discipline, just like kendo is. In kendo you don't do whatever you want or however you feel. Plus, from my experiences, it IS possible to meditate incorrectly and make things worse, just like improper kendo technique (or any athletic technique) can get you injured. Though you'd have to be going at it A LOT- as in hours a day...for that risk to be an issue.

Zazen is so amazing, and I don't want anyone to be put off by it because they are doing it in a way thats not going to be helpful.

But by all means, you can always attempt shikantaza. Who knows, maybe you'll be able to do it. At least it probably won't ever be as bad as those "ninjas" who tried to train themselves to use real swords on youtube...and one got his hand cut off. It won't ever be that bad.

Most likely, at worst, you'd just give it up and stop meditating, thinking that you tried it and it wasn't helpful-(which is a shame, because few can probably do shikantaza. Few have the concentration for it until they build up enough concentration and experience, but hey, whatever floats your boat).

[uphokyhuP]

. At least with this, it's not likely someone can hurt themselves practicing meditation.

Sorry for the double post, but I do need to repeat, it IS possible to mess yourself up a bit if you arn't meditating correctly. But the risk of doing anything serious is pretty much non-existant except at sesshins (where you meditate around 10 hours a day, for several days.) Everything else- you'd pretty much give up meditation before getting really messed up.

For example, as far as the not too serious type of messed up- I remember one guy who was suppressing his thoughts (trying to blank his mind rather than let things go) and it was making him depressed, so he gave up meditation. In truth he wasn't really doing zazen so its no wonder it made him depressed. Suppressing thoughts is never a good idea. It was sad that he gave it up though. I actually made the same mistake too but my spiritual teacher helped me get on the right track.

And yeah I also want to repeat, there are plenty of reasons why a person should be discouraged from doing shikantaza when they are not ready for it. Not even counting whether or not you can "injure yourself". Its more a matter of, can you do an advanced meditation technique or do you need to build up to it

Turboyoshi...lets assume you never lifted weights before. You want to bench press 100 pounds. Even if injury was not an issue, if you never even lifted 50 pounds, how can I reasonably expect you to be able to lift 100? Sure you can try, but please don't think weight lifting (or zazen/shikantaza) is worthless because you're not able to do it. Its worse with zazen/shikantaza though because unlike weight lifting, where you can visually see that you arn't lifting the weights, with zazen its hard to know when you really arn't doing it.

[saopinax]

Wow, is that what I sounded like to my seniors when I was "reading zen"? All terms and definitions. This iaido is/isn't zen stuff is also pretty re-mindful of the great jutsu-do wars of the early '90s

As for me and my house, I don't go to any particular church (which is of course the discussion of zen / mikkyo / bad acts from zen motives / in budo, it's a discussion of doctrine, of coptic vs catholic, of sunni vs shia). I pay attention to what I'm doing and saying during the day, I zone out when I'm riding the bicycle, I breath slowly when I'm in the sauna and pay attention to the lower back as it relaxes, I try to be nice to people.

And I do iaido because sitting is too hard.

But, to go back to the OP, when sitting, sit. Don't be thinking about it.

It's a physical act, it's like discussing nuki tsuke instead of swinging a sword.

Swing the sword

Sit

Kim.

[opelayday]

That reminds me of a delightful book, Kim, Eat, Sleep, Sit. If we think Iai and Kendo are hard work, then what Zen disciples do to the newbies joining them is on a different level! Its well worth reading.

[flielagit]

Bwahahahahaha

Kim.