[Kneedycrype]

At first I thought I would try to resurrect a long-dead thread on kendo and the olympics, but then I went into a deep shame spiral and just decided to post this link showing obnoxious fencers gloating and acting like brats after they win.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/sha...D_FEM_RX_L0247

[Anypeny]

Only for viewers in the US!! I downloaded that scabby plug-in for nothing!

[costamarianavia]

olympic fencers fall over a lot.

why is kendo not an olympic sport when water polo and pellet gun shooting is?

[Paladin]

well, i don't think we can compare what is bratty, disrespectful, or poor etiquette, between fencing and kendo, as they are rooted in very different culture's and traditions. But i think looking at most other sports, the insta-celebrations etc. exhibited in fencing is a little silly looking.
I personally just thought it would have been a little more interesting. But Kenzan described it best in another thread, can't remember it exactly, but it was something like: poke, scream, fist pump, rinse and repeat. haha

[Arratherimi]

Only for viewers in the US!! I downloaded that scabby plug-in for nothing!

Bloody Americans...wait, that's me! Sorry.

[propolo]

For those sitting back and criticising, how many of you do fencing regularly or have actually tried fencing?

Fencing does come with etiquette and just because you don't have knowledge of it doesn't give you the right to sit back and judge.

Have you thought how dojo etiquette appears to someone without a martial arts background of some kind?

It's little wonder why the discussion of kendo and fencing in the same conversation results in name calling.

[AnthonyKing]

As someone who can understand both camps, maybe Imouto you could explain what some of the etiquette of fencing is. What is acceptable and unacceptable?

The BIG thing that separates kendo and fencing IMO is the fact that in kendo there is something more important than winning. In fencing, it appears that nothing is more important than winning. Perhaps that's just the Olympic influence.

b

[netamargr]

I had a reply ready to go, but Ben beat me to the punch - and I happen to agree with all of his points.

I don't think it's fair to jump on people about something they don't understand without explaining what it is they don't understand.

[estuapped]

Fencing does come with etiquette and just because you don't have knowledge of it doesn't give you the right to sit back and judge.

We don't need to know the specifics to know that throwing your mask is bad. And I can't believe that all that fist-punching hoo-ha after every point is part of fencing etiquette. Salute the president, salute your opponent, that's obviously etiquette, even if done perfunctorily these days.
Have you thought how dojo etiquette appears to someone without a martial arts background of some kind? It might look a little silly or stilted to people, but I think it would be perfectly obvious to anyone after watching several matches what the drill is. It would be equally obvious that there is no showboating, drama, protests, etc.

[TZtrDuso]

i don't think we should judge either. But you have to remember, most people are never going to set foot in a fencing school, maybe that is their disadvantage, idk, but what we all see of fencing is what we are going to know and think of it. So if fencers want us to appreciate the etiquette and stuff that is said to be a part of fencing, then that should be displayed more in the Olympics (probably the only place normal people will see real fencing matches.)

[hoconnor6605]

Well, we're shooting whale in a barrel here.

I agree that the fencing celebrations we see these days are over the top and I also think they display a disrespect for the opponent that clashes with the saluting before the match. Until they start threatening fencers with docked points, though, I don't think the situation is likely to improve.

As it happens, I used to fence back in high school. I remember learning to salute, but I don't recall learning any post-match etiquette.

[VIAGRA-]

I think fencing's history contains bravado and machismo (European concepts as it happens), as well as etiquette. Reading accounts of famous bouts from years gone by it would seem that there has always been a strong tradition of what Neil calls showboating, "What sayest thou to that sir?" (trans. "In your FACE, loser!")

And of course fencing has had a lot of influence on stage-fighting. It would be silly to think the stage hadn't also influenced fencing. Think of the duel scene in 'Hamlet', when the fencing is there to form the backdrop to an ongoing verbal stoush. It's all part of their tradition that makes it different to ours. Fencing seems to be a platform for the fencer to display his/her personality and passion. Both these things, personality and passion, are anathema to kendo.

I think in the same way you can see in high-school kendo the influence of jidai-geki and chanbara (the infamous one-handed flourish on scoring do comes to mind). But there is a very strict and explicit influence on kendoka above 4-dan to actively eradicate that influence from their kendo. Perhaps fencing doesn't have this.

b

[DownloadMan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jols-rTdZs
I found this. Oh dear...

[Nadin Maison]

I personally just thought it would have been a little more interesting. But Kenzan described it best in another thread, can't remember it exactly, but it was something like: poke, scream, fist pump, rinse and repeat. haha

Kendo is a bunch of people yelling and beating each other with a stick. That isn't what kendo is but it's a more than apt description. To the outsider, any complex act is simplified.

I don't think it's fair to jump on people about something they don't understand without explaining what it is they don't understand.

I call it like I see it. From some of the things I've witnessed around here, there's a bit of jumping when someone asks a question that displays naiveté about kendo. The level of tolerance of such questions and statements varies between users of course.

We don't need to know the specifics to know that throwing your mask is bad. And I can't believe that all that fist-punching hoo-ha after every point is part of fencing etiquette. Salute the president, salute your opponent, that's obviously etiquette, even if done perfunctorily these days.

Are you telling me that every single fencer does this? If so, fencing needs to be overhauled at the elite level. I was recently at an international tournament and I can tell you that there was no mask throwing. Also a mask starts off at $AU200ish. It's not something to be thrown about.

Fist punching did occur. I didn't agree with it and found that other fellow fencers also did not agree with it and felt that it goes against the honour code of fencing. This was limited to fencers in their teens and early twenties.

i don't think we should judge either. But you have to remember, most people are never going to set foot in a fencing school, maybe that is their disadvantage, idk, but what we all see of fencing is what we are going to know and think of it. So if fencers want us to appreciate the etiquette and stuff that is said to be a part of fencing, then that should be displayed more in the Olympics (probably the only place normal people will see real fencing matches.)

What in the hell is being shown at the Olympics? The Australian broadcaster is !@#$@ at their job. I've seen nothing but swimming, cycling, swimming, cycling, equestrian, swimming, cycling, diving, swimming, cycling, and gymnastics. And even though swimming is over, I'm still seeing the freaking swimming team on TV.

If that is all you're seeing of the Olympic matches then I'm not surprised at the attitudes displayed.

As someone who can understand both camps, maybe Imouto you could explain what some of the etiquette of fencing is. What is acceptable and unacceptable?

The BIG thing that separates kendo and fencing IMO is the fact that in kendo there is something more important than winning. In fencing, it appears that nothing is more important than winning. Perhaps that's just the Olympic influence.

b

There is something more to fencing than winning. Fencing is about drawing first blood from your opponent. A bunch of aristocrats got together and drew up rules about how to go about winning arguments without killing each other and developed fencing. The idea was that the winner of the argument would be the person who drew first blood of the other person.

Well that was the original idea and I've come across fencers with this ideal. They're dangerously good fencers and I love having a bout or two with them because I'm forced to consider my move, albeit far too slowly.

There is a pre-match ritual of saluting the referee/umpire first and then to your opponent. This is all done with the mask off. I think the idea behind this is that everyone can see each other eye to eye.

I've since discovered that there is some yelling in fencing. Fencers also need to sell the hit on a target. Yes there's all the gadgetry and fancy electronics but sometimes the final decision rests with the ref particularly in bouts where both fencers land a hit at the same time. Then the rest falls down to which fencer was the aggressor and who had right of way. I have noticed some fencers yelling when delivering a hit. I wouldn't call it a kiai though it is similar I suppose. Though even fencers call it yelling.

All the other stuff in between points such as mask throwing and generally acting like a ponce isn't considered good etiquette or respectful. Some coaches will haul their charges over hot coals for it. Others won't. Some people consider this as part of the psychological game and will go so far as to say that is shows the aggression to the referees.

My opinion and also of other fellow fencers. This is a waste of energy and all that it shows is that you're falling apart on the piste, (the long strip area of where the bout occurs).

Post match etiquette should include taking off the mask and glove. Then you walk to your opponent to shake their hand and thank them for a good bout. And most importantly, don't forget to thank the referee.

You can cheer and jump for joy when you're off the piste, not before. Though obviously this is also ignored by a number of fencers.

Hope that helps in some way.

[soydaykam]

For those sitting back and criticising, how many of you do fencing regularly or have actually tried fencing?

Fair enough. For my part, I fenced in college and went to the Nationals twice. There is a certain tradition of elan or style in fencing but nothing to match the sheer brat-like behavior of some of these Olympic fencers.

IMO, it's ok to jump up and around and hug but some of the rude gestures and grunts are over the top.

[saumemeva]

So there is ettiquite in fencing, but only if you feel like it. That's basically what I got out of that whole post. There is no point docking, just a couple fencers may not like it. Sounds pretty strict. Then, in the world spotlight, fencers act their absolute worst, including ignoring the opponent after the match, and dancing while screaming on the piste. Awesome.

[cypedembeda]

So there is ettiquite in fencing, but only if you feel like it. That's basically what I got out of that whole post. There is no point docking, just a couple fencers may not like it. Sounds pretty strict. Then, in the world spotlight, fencers act their absolute worst, including ignoring the opponent after the match, and dancing while screaming on the piste. Awesome.

It's a sorepoint and causes many a debate in fencing circles. Though what I am currently witnessing at the club level that this behaviour is being curtailed, at times severely. I've all but given up on the Olympians. I've heard of some of the more obnoxious behaviour being displayed.

My hope is that the next generation don't forget their manners, otherwise I just may be forced to work at getting Olympic qualification. This would be a shame as it would remove the hobby aspect of it and I would have to spend less time in the dojo.

[VXHLrsO1]

If some Olympian fencers throw away their etiquette that doesn't mean that no fencer has etiquette. But this has been said before.

I think it's quite harsh to demand point docking for bad manners from Olympic fencing. Just because Kendo encourages etiquette and manners that doesn't mean every other sport needs to do so (and of course not in the way kendo does it!).

In my opinion the whole discussion is pointless. There are fencers in the public spotlight that behave badly, yes. But you should know better than to judge by that (especially as kenshi who is familiar with the whole "should kendo become olympic?"-debate.).

[MediconStop]

I think it's quite harsh to demand point docking for bad manners from Olympic fencing. Just because Kendo encourages etiquette and manners that doesn't mean every other sport needs to do so (and of course not in the way kendo does it!).

.).

Why would everything, but kendo be exempt from having ettiquite?

[cialesxtr]

There is something more to fencing than winning. Fencing is about drawing first blood from your opponent. A bunch of aristocrats got together and drew up rules about how to go about winning arguments without killing each other and developed fencing. The idea was that the winner of the argument would be the person who drew first blood of the other person....{snip}

Hope that helps in some way.

Thanks for the explanation Imouto. It would seem then to be the infamous "Olympic Spirit" which is the corrupting influence, and not something inherent in fencing. It's just a pity that fencing's biggest stage has become an arena for displaying the worst behaviour, rather than the best.

Totally agree about the Australian broadcaster's parochialism. Then again, when you consider that some estimates put the price of a single Aussie gold medal at up to AUD$100 million of taxpayers' money, it makes sense that people are going to want to watch the sports that show them the best chance of a return on their money, so to speak.

The more I consider the Olympics, the more I'm convinced that the best way to develop and promote kendo is simply through one's own keiko. A kind of "if you build it they will come" kind of ethos.

b