[PVaQlNaP]

Good luck with the documentary. Kendo, iado, and other legitimate martial arts have very little in common with SCA, LARPing, and backyard ninja activities.

The following won't be popular.

Do you mean like getting dressed up in costumes, utilizing rules that don't make sense given their historical roots and superficially re-enacting elements of a bygone era are unique to SCA, LARPing and backyard ninjery?

For more than a few people, getting dressed up, using "exotic" weapons, the master/disciple relationship, and experiencing elements of different culture/bygone era is part of the initial attraction to JSA. Whether something else takes root and keeps them coming back is something one could hope for if they want to keep people in the club, but some of the above elements get them in the door in the first place. If that wasn't true, people won't be so resistant to change for bogu design etc.

[JaK_MarkoV_Pi]

If that wasn't true, people won't be so resistant to change for bogu design etc.

I'm not convinced of this reasoning. I'm not attached to the idea of emulating ancient samurai or anything like that. I actually don't have any desire to learn how to use a sword. I don't even like swords. I resist changes to bogu design because I think they are unnecessary. Even though it's possible to create safer bogu, chances are it would increase bogu cost and I believe the safety gains are not outweighed by the cost. Kendo is not a dangerous activity comparatively speaking. The worst thing I've ever experienced is blisters on my hands and feet and I doubt design changes to bogu are going to change that.

To get back to the topic, I understand that a documentary doesn't have time and isn't really intended to provide a real education about kendo/iaido and the distinctions that separate it from SCA/LARPing and whatnot, although that's what I'd like to see. I've decided that at least in part, hl1978 is correct and a lot of people join kendo with the wrong idea of what it involves. We should accept that it will at least create some extra exposure and while we cannot control how others present our art to the public, we can do our best to present it properly to those who come to the dojo and maybe we can reach a few of those people and get them interested in the real thing. Even if they leave because it wasn't what they thought it'd be, they at least don't need to leave with a negative image of us being overly protective of our arts or overly critical of others.

[SappyAppy]

This is a little off-topic, but I really think that the difference between kendo and the SCA is not as large as the difference between SCA and LARPing. For example, at least in the LARPs that I've been involved in, no one makes any serious attempt to make the fighting systematically "realistic." It's difficult to do that when you want to be able to cast fireballs and transmute people into newts.

I know people who have joined the SCA specifically to fight. I know quite a few LARPers, but none that have taken it up specifically to fight. The ones who are interested in boffer fights simply have boffer fights and drop the pretense of RP -- like the "shinai club" folks, but with golf tubes and PVC instead of shinai. If they LARP, they don't LARP to fight.

Similarly, in the few years I spent engaged with the SCA, I never actually met anyone who was really into roleplaying as part of the SCA. People may have had personas with made up names and histories, but they still basically acted as themselves, except in accordance with a different set of social conventions. SCAdians do call it roleplaying, but the hardcore RPers that I know absolutely would not. The SCA people I knew didn't do any more roleplaying than I do when I go to the dojo in my dogi, count in Japanese instead of English, try to adhere to Japanese manners instead of American ones, and respond to "gen-san" instead of the normal pronunciation of my name. I suppose it is possible that the barony I was involved with was unusual in that way, but I don't really think so.

Anyway, my point is that I wish people would stop bundling the two together, since putting SCA and LARPs together in one bucket makes about as much sense to me as putting kendo and "shinai club," or boxing and tae bo, together. Similarly, I think it is unfair for people to criticize SCA weapons practice unless they have had some exposure to it. I think the difference between the people who fight in the SCA and kendo players is not as large as many obviously think.

[DenisMoor]

If that wasn't true, people won't be so resistant to change for bogu design etc.

My bet is that the reigi is the reason for resistance.

I think the difference between the people who fight in the SCA and kendo players is not as large as many obviously think.

The question is:
What is their reason to do so.

"Kendo is a way to discipline the human character through the application of the principles of the Katana."

Remember that?
Even if you're doing it to work out or for fun, you will end up being dragged by its primary purpose.

Now I ask you, what's the purpose of the SCA?

[soprofaxel]

I can't be the only person whose SCA friends were only in it to get laid.

[attractiveweb]

Even if you're doing it to work out or for fun, you will end up being dragged by its primary purpose.

I am not as sure about that as you seem to be. Your next question is an excellent example as to why:

Now I ask you, what's the purpose of the SCA? "The SCA is an international organization dedicated to researching and re-creating the arts and skills of pre-17th-century Europe." (www.sca.org)

When you think of SCA folks, do you imagine them to be researchers and preservationists? Plenty of them are, but there are plenty that are not. In precisely the same way, I think there are plenty of people who practice kendo to discipline themselves, but, then again, I think there are plenty that do not.

[bebeacc]

Personally, I think the vast VAST majority of people who practice kendo are not into it because they are "dedicated to researching and re-creating the arts and skills of pre-XXth-century Japan."

At the risk of offending Jakob, I just won't artciulate my personal opinion about SCA folks. I don't have any ill-will towards them at all. Don't have any ill-will towards what they do. I honestly don't care to argue the semantics of legitimacy of what they do. I may not have worded my thoughts very well previously in this thread, but I suppose my main point is that I don't understand why anyone would want to compare what kendo folks do with what SCA folks do because in my world, that's apples and oranges.

On a side note, I'd like to apologize for grouping SCA people in with LARPers. It wasn't my intention to imply they are one in the same.
I can understand how SCAers might take offense to it.

[Flieteewell]

I suppose my main point is that I don't understand why anyone would want to compare what kendo folks do with what SCA folks do because in my world, that's apples and oranges.

I totally agree with you, apples and oranges, from our perspective.

I think it's a question of who the target audience is for the documentary. People like my in-laws don't see SCA fighting and kendo as being significantly different. Frankly, arguing vehemently how our sticks, culottes, and mittens are clearly so very much more correct than theirs comes across like arguing whether or not the NCC-1701a Enterprise is better than the NCC-1701d Enterprise and which would be ore likely to win in a fight with a Star Destroyer. If the documentary is for people like that, and my (admittedly entirely uninformed) assumption was that it is, then I think it's worth showing the differences side-by-side. I think the vast majority of people only see people hitting each other with sticks.

[xyupi]

good point

[arindiruppyr]

I totally agree with you, apples and oranges, from our perspective.

I think it's a question of who the target audience is for the documentary. People like my in-laws don't see SCA fighting and kendo as being significantly different. Frankly, arguing vehemently how our sticks, culottes, and mittens are clearly so very much more correct than theirs comes across like arguing whether or not the NCC-1701a Enterprise is better than the NCC-1701d Enterprise and which would be ore likely to win in a fight with a Star Destroyer. If the documentary is for people like that, and my (admittedly entirely uninformed) assumption was that it is, then I think it's worth showing the differences side-by-side. I think the vast majority of people only see people hitting each other with sticks.

right on Arthur!

[attishina]

Although I think it makes us feel better by engaging in trash talking, I think we as kendoists and iaidoists really shouldn't try to judge another person's hobby, nor try to rank our particular peculiar hobby against another.

If you think about it, almost all hobbies can be made to sound ridiculous and absurd, including our own. We can try to sound all philosophical and quote the FIK mission statements as if they had some deep religious significance but someone even only passingly familiar with kendo history could counter that the FIK mission statement is a statement crafted by a committee that is at heart a deeply political statement intimately attached to the historical context in which it was made.

I said something once when I was a relative beginner during lunch with my sensei, and he paused and said, "well, there are actually many different ways of improving character, like learning tea, or calligraphy, or flower arrangement, all we do differently is use the shinai"

[Konidurase]

Weekend warrior sounds like play time. A documentary about leisure-time, pseudo-combat entertainment is not something that would have me glued to the tube. That's not to say that a show like that couldn't grow a huge following, though. You just need sensationalism to draw viewers and then pile on layers of absurdity to retain their attention. And for heavens sake, don't go philosophical on them!

[TheDoctor]

Have you guys watched whats on the history channel lately? Half of their lineup seems to be psuedo science and realitytv, though apparently their head of programming just moved to the Lifetime channel after drawing in a lot of new viewers with non-historical programming. The likelihood of a serious JSA documentry is fairly low, I would expect some sensationalism to attract viewers.

Check out history channel ownership for an explanation of why it is now the historical fiction channel. http://www.freepress.net/ownership/chart/main

[Eagevawax]

Wow, Mickey mouse owns the History channel! No wonder! Thanks for the link, Bruce.

[Tauntenue]

Hey guys it's me the documentary guy. I appreciate your candor. The purpose of the documentary is to show the world the various ways and organizations that exist whose at least partial philosophy is based on warrior culture not to judge which is better. With that in mind I pose a question to you.

What makes someone a warrior?

[SweetCaroline]

Hey guys it's me the documentary guy. I appreciate your candor. The purpose of the documentary is to show the world the various ways and organizations that exist whose at least partial philosophy is based on warrior culture not to judge which is better. With that in mind I pose a question to you.

What makes someone a warrior?

IMO, a warrior is one who constantly lives in a state of preparedness and training for combat, usually within a larger cultural context (such as medieval Japan or Europe) and within a specific philosophical framework; all of which provides the impetus for that person to lead that life.

With that in mind, the only people that I can think of that come close to that would be the special forces community (SAS, SEALS, etc.) and even then I think they are not quite the same only because they are soldiers and must operate within the confines of the nation state concept whereas the warriors of the past did not (I am think of the European Knight and his right to leave the service of his lord or to choose single combat over submission to the group).

[Lunims]

I think a warrior is someone whose occupation is war. The preparation for it, to some extent, but also the practice of real war. If you want to become a warrior, you can board a plane and become one somewhere, I suppose. Practicing martial arts, even full contact ones, otoh, does not make you one, any more than war simulation video games do.

[L6RLnyfl]

When I told my doctor I'd hurt my ankle playing soccer she said, "Oh are you a weekend warrior?"

Nothing about Kendo had been mentioned. It's a commonly used phrase nowadays to explain someone who only does a physical activity/hobby on the weekends or just once a week. Her point was that you're more likely to get injured if you only do something once a week.

I guess based on subsequent comments that the documentarian was intending on focusing on modern cultural warfare representations, but if I saw something about a "weekend warrior" I would expect it to be about guys who do no physical activity during the week but play three hours of basketball or whatnot on Saturday mornings.

Anyway, I agree with B-mack. A literal warrior is someone who trains for and wages war; e.g., the US troops in Afghanistan; Columbian paramilitaries; Israeli secret police, etc.

[bubborn]

Columbian paramilitaries; Israeli secret police, etc.

From what I have heard, the Columbian paramilitaries are the equivalent of weekend warriors...

[vipbunter]

What makes someone a weekend warrior?

This is the more appropriate question to ask since it's directly relevant to your documentary. Talking about warriors has nothing to do with any recreational activity. On the other hand, weekend warriors is exactly the type of person jjcruiser mentions and most likely the kind of person you see doing LARPs and such. I don't think the same can be said for kendo/iaido as I think the average practitioner of JSA takes his training more seriously but since those are activities that are likely going to have superficial appeal to the target audience, it's probably fair to include them. I don't think the exposure will hurt and when they get into a real dojo, it'll be a good opportunity to broaden their perspective. I do think however, that if you mention JSA, you include a little bit of how to differentiate "McDojos" from places that teach proper JSA. At the very least, mention a weblink to a site with correct information.