[@Aerodyno@]

We must all witness people attending our dojo from time to time, who simply don't have the 'spark' to allow them to be any good at Iai/Kenjutsu/Kendo/Naginatado and who disappear after a couple of awkward lessons. But what happened in feudal Japan if a person born into a Samurai family didn't have that spark either? What if they were poor warriors, unable to grasp the nuances of swordplay, archery, strategy etc? What happened to these people? There must have been poor warriors in Japan who ended up....well, where?

Any thoughts?

[Vomazoono]

Just a guess, but I'm thinking: There is no failure, so you have no choice but to wrap your mind around it.

Interesting question.

[brurdefdoro]

Wouldn't they just be farmers?

[Seasmillets]

maybe they were the smarter ones that would be writing texts or the runner boys, I'm sure there were enough functions to fill in, even if they were from an honorable family, maybe even just the status would be enough to give a boost to the common footfolk?

[ChebuRAtoR]

Back then you were grown into it from before you could walk though right
Not coming into it as an adult

And as Tango said its a mind thing

Plus not all samurai were brave warriors.
Yes they served their lord but other things needed doing but war.

Currently i am reading yoshioka.
Hideyoshi supervised kitchens rebuilding of the castle the stables and all sorts....

that and fighting real peoples is much different than my seethrough man

[Yarmark]

I'm not sure I believe in a spark. Do you mean an aptitude, or a determination? I think more or less, we're all the same, maybe some of us are further ahead at certain things due to past experiences, or physical attributes. I think talent can only get you so far, then it's hard work, no matter who you are. I think for someone in the old days with less aptitude as a beginner would learn pretty quick under the pressure, expectation to succeed, and a rigourous daily training schedule. Also, beginners in that era were probably all young kids, with more years ahead to learn and grow, so probably the least apt would end up with some level of competency, but maybe be relegated to more clerical jobs, or like the subject says, they died in their first engagement.

[gamecasta]

Currently i am reading yoshioka.
Hideyoshi supervised kitchens rebuilding of the castle the stables and all sorts....

That sounds interesting. What is its full title?

[yqpY4iw6]

I'm not sure I believe in a spark. Do you mean an aptitude, or a determination?

I didn't define it too clearly because like you, braxtonhicks (painful name ouch!) I don't think I believe in 'natural talent'. But there are some people who are just less strong in the upper body perhaps or are not good at coordinating their limbs and the same must've been the case for would-be Samurai and surely they'd have been poor warriors? Maybe Satsuma has it: the physically less able were dispatched into roles that played to their strengths-bookkeeping, cooking, food tasters, horse handlers... I think I'd've avoided being a farmer at all costs, Missingno-too much like hard work and having seen Seven Samurai, dangerous too!

Failure not being an option is an interesting idea, tango. It can't be that simple can it? For example many people join, say, the Royal Air Force to become fighter pilots and try really hard and are pushed, but just can't develop what it takes and end up in some other role. Square pegs and round holes and all that.

On balance, Satsuma's hypothesis sounds the most plausible really, but if a battle or a siege occurred, I assume these people would literally have been cannon fodder in the mêlée!

[mloversia]

If I got anything from watching jidaigeki, they acted as government bureaucrats.

[esanamaserrn]

Coming from a very physical life ( without crowing ) I have played soccer, waterski, wakeboard, snowboard, skateboard, mtn and road bike, skydiving etc etc all my life... My kids are following in the same path. My wife on the other hand looks terribly uncomfortable even jogging for a minute and does not enjoy physical discomfort or sweating. My .02$ is that physical prowess was not limited to only the Samurai class but those who were born into it AND had strong physical abilities would rise to the martial end of the curve. Those without strong skills would naturally gravitate to other activities...accounting, mgt of personnel and such.

Almost along the old adage of " Those who can, do. Those who cannot, teach." ( With all due respect to teachers on the boards :P )

[wmtravelservice]

I have to agree with Tango there was no option of failure that's what made the samurai the best.

[ptolerezort]

I have to agree with Tango there was no option of failure that's what made the samurai the best.

Why would forcing people with no aptitude to do something they hate make them the best?

[skydaypat]

I kinda doubt that most of them really had the time to put into training martial skills. Since they were also the "leading/management" class, most probably had better things to learn... like not mismanaging their resources, or not ruining all those other operations that are required for their society to function on a day to day basis etc. etc.

[Nurfzerne]

Could it be that modern Japanese 'Salary men' are actually the direct descendants of the Samurai?

I'm sure we all no kids who've been forced into careers or educational paths that they had no aptitude or passion in and ended up being at best mediocre and usually very unhappy. You can't make someone do something they have no passion for.

[b91ZmxzX]

I'm sure we all no kids who've been forced into careers or educational paths that they had no aptitude or passion in and ended up being at best mediocre and usually very unhappy. You can't make someone do something they have no passion for.

Didn't you just contradict yourself?

[Averti$ingGuru]

That sounds interesting. What is its full title?

sorry thats not what i am reading at all. serves me right for typing on forums whilst at work
its Taiko by Eiji Yoshikawa http://www.amazon.com/Taiko-Eiji-Yos...0682116&sr=8-1

[qilmuz6v]

Didn't you just contradict yourself?

You mean from my 'Bounce-How Champions are Made'/there's no such thing as born talent stance? Not really. It seems one still has to be passionate about an activity in order to practise purposefully and thus become expert in the activity. I suppose there could be rare people who can do things they really hate to an excellent degree, but surely they are as rare as hen's teeth.

[v74ClzKY]

There must have been poor warriors in Japan who ended up....well, where?

Dead?

[MasdMnPa]

You mean from my 'Bounce-How Champions are Made'/there's no such thing as born talent stance? Not really. It seems one still has to be passionate about an activity in order to practise purposefully and thus become expert in the activity. I suppose there could be rare people who can do things they really hate to an excellent degree, but surely they are as rare as hen's teeth.

Ah, that's something different. Maybe it is not possible to make someone be good at something they don't want to do, but surely it is possible to make someone do something they don't want to do. It happens every day.

[ovH9wfSJ]

We must all witness people attending our dojo from time to time, who simply don't have the 'spark' to allow them to be any good at Iai/Kenjutsu/Kendo/Naginatado and who disappear after a couple of awkward lessons.

After a couple of weeks I know I didnt have "the spark" but I love kendo. i have seen naturals give up after a few months.. I have seen the most awkward carry on and flourish (well carry on anyway )

But what happened in feudal Japan if a person born into a Samurai family didn't have that spark either? What if they were poor warriors, unable to grasp the nuances of swordplay, archery, strategy etc? What happened to these people? There must have been poor warriors in Japan who ended up....well, where?

Any thoughts?

Samurai were a class of people. Samurai does not instantly mean Warrior/swordsman/spearman.

If the Samurai families had a martial dud, I am sure they would be deployed to whereever their skills were best applied.

Join the army now.. you dont have to be a front line fighter. Be a journalist, logistics co-ordinator, lawyer, engineer, cook, bottlewasher.