[L6RLnyfl]

OK, here's one to those in the know.

Any ideas on an ideal finish for a timber floor to make it suitable for keiko? Are there less-grippy varnishes out there? Nitrocellulose or polyurethane? Plain old oil or wax? Are sport-lacquers (Junckers etc) worth the money?

I am completely lost here so all advice will be appreciated. Please back comments up with 'why' or 'why not', cheers.

Sarcastic or idiot comments will be retaliated against with pure venom.

[Lebybynctisee]

Pardon the impertinence/ignorance, but theoretically, is a finish necessary at all? Of course, if it's a multi-use room, I can understand why a finish would be needed for protection. But if it's a dojo floor dedicated for kendo/iaido, would not an unfinished floor, sanded smooth, be acceptable (even preferable)?

I know I've practiced both kendo and iaido on basketball courts, with a beautiful (poly I assume) finish, and they were way more uncomfortable for suriashi than on my home dojo floor which is in a building probably 40 or 50 years old with a floor that, to my knowledge, has never been refinished.

Just my 2 yen. Let the venom flow.

RC_Kenshi

[TOD4wDTQ]

No venom for you...

The probs is that the timber will become dirty and discoloured through use without a finish of sorts. I am assuming at this stage that an oiled finish is preferable to artificial poly lacquers.

[Dilangos]

Nitrocellulose is a no, no (they used it on vintage guitars and reproductions which is why I know about it) . Its difficult to apply, fragile, highly flammable and requires regular reapplication.

My post in the 'Iaido' section might have some bearing on this, Scott!

[Pa33anger]

The 'flammable' bit is quite appealing though.

[gennickO]

Whatever they finish gym floors with, allowed to wear down for a year or two, is good. I'm not sure how you keep it at that state...

[anconueys]

Scott, I think most basketball/gym type floors use a water based urethane coating like can be found here:

http://www.parish-supply.com/newage.htm

[Tarrccrys]

A few of the floors I have practiced on in Japan that were dedicated dojo had an unfinished, polished floor. Very slippery unless you damp mop it first. I have a Swedish finish on my home floor and I like it a lot. Just right for gripping and slipping.

[Arximedus]

Don’t know if this helps but over the years I’ve used a verity of poly urethanes and waxes for floor finishes. I’ve noticed that gloss seems to be a little more tacky than satin finish, not sure why. I haven’t really noticed a difference from brand to brand, and I’ve tried both the water based and oil based poly type urethanes. The oil ones seem to hold up a little better but are worse for the environment and harder to clean up. I also think they might be a little tackier. It seems like the prefinished floors that have become popular over the last 5-10 years have a very smooth finish, good for iai sometimes slippery for kendo. I’ve never used an oil to finish a floor but have practice on one, it was very nice and probably my favorite type of finish. Just not sure how you would go about keeping the floor from splintering in the wood, but most of the floors I have experience with are oak, maple, or ash, and I’m sure there are a lot of different type dojo floors than that. The urethane floors are sticky as anything when first put down as Neil pointed out, and become just about perfect when they’re in need of refinishing. I guess you could try to put down a satin poly then lightly screen it with a fine grit. Other than that I don’t know of any scale that lists how tacky it will be once put down, but if you want smooth vs tacky I think the natural oils instead of the polys might be better but that’s just an assumption. Also some of the varnishes have a horrendous smell that stays around from a long time, sometime months, poly does too to some extent, so VOC’s are something to consider as well.

[steevytraunse]

Scott,

Take a cue from your Jodo practice. Natural oils help make the jo perfect to handle. So it is with floors. High quality timber, good sanding and oils and time work better than varnishes for this sort of thing. Some varnishes are sticky when dry and lethally slippery when wet. I know I've come a cropper once or twice in kendo as a result.

I know there are products available to render floors safely slippery, mainly for people who want an instant dance floor, but I don't know how suitable they are for bare feet!

[johnteriz]

Dirty/discolored? That's called well aged. I agree with Curtis. The floors I practiced on in Japan, and the ones I liked the most were essentially polished and unfinished...other than by the oils from the feet of the people using the floor. It's really hard to describe how wonderful that sort of floor feels, and how nice it is to practice on it. Yep the older floors get a bit darkened wth age. Actually looks nice.

No venom for you...

The probs is that the timber will become dirty and discoloured through use without a finish of sorts. I am assuming at this stage that an oiled finish is preferable to artificial poly lacquers.

[pageup85]

could probably accelerate the foot oil finish by starting it with some tung oil....

[highattainlet]

Bummer Scott!
When I saw the thread title, I thought you were going to tell us about your wild weekend!

I agree with those advocating an oil finish. Going unfinished until feet can do the job is not a good idea as your floor will alternate too dry and too moist according to the weather, and this will cause splinters. A friend of mine did his floor with Woca finish, and it really felt nice on the feet ... http://www.wocadirect.com/

[PebydataFeents]

I vote for unfinished. We practice on a unfinished dance floor and it's great.

[chuecfafresslds]

We practice on a unfinished dance floor and it's great. Are you certain it is unfinished, or is it just uncoated? An oil finish will not show a coating on top of the floor like urethane will. Very few floors are left unfinished as raw wood reacts quite a bit to the moisture content in the air, which leads to cracking and splintering.

[Peapeuddedbaw]

Are you certain it is unfinished, or is it just uncoated? An oil finish will not show a coating on top of the floor like urethane will. Very few floors are left unfinished as raw wood reacts quite a bit to the moisture content in the air, which leads to cracking and splintering.

Hmmm I can't say but I do know the owner referred to it as unfinished. I can tell you that we had an air conditioner leak on to the floor last week and it made the wood dry and warped. Would that indicate that it was unfinished?

Scott, If you left it unfinished you could at least try it out. Then if you didn't like it you could take your chances with some kind of coating.

[glamourcitys]

Hmmm I can't say but I do know the owner referred to it as unfinished. I can tell you that we had an air conditioner leak on to the floor last week and it made the wood dry and warped. Would that indicate that it was unfinished? It very well could be unfinished then. Being as how you're in Florida so you're air conditioning runs almost all year, that would allow for pretty good humidity control. That's a good point that if left unfinished, it wouldn't be difficult to sand it down and apply a finish later if needed.

[lXvtm0ox]

Hmmm I can't say but I do know the owner referred to it as unfinished. I can tell you that we had an air conditioner leak on to the floor last week and it made the wood dry and warped. Would that indicate that it was unfinished?

Oil needs to be reapplied periodically, so if the floor was oiled some time ago you can still get absorption from fresh water exposure. Even freshly oiled, my wooden tanto will get raised grain from sweat if I slip it in my obi for the duration of a training session. It's not water-proof, just water resistant. Too much though and it can get a bit tacky, so use sparingly.

One thing to look at when looking at oils is to make sure you're getting oil and not an oil-based finish. Most commercial oil finish products (tung oil, teak oil, and Danish oil) actually combine oil and a sealant with carrier. That will be not much different in final footing characteristics than using a urethane finish. Read your labels! Boiled linseed would be readily available as a pure oil in quantities suitable for a floor, though I don't know anything at all about its actual use in such a circumstance. My experience is with furniture and weapons.

-Beth