[LottiFurmann]

jaiganes: If you see SAC's influence on Shankar creativity. Do you see BM's influence on Bala's work.

Bala never has got influenced (or copy) hollywood films. But BM cant think of anything original!

BM's influence on Bala's work is absolutely evident!!
It thankfully (or not) is not in the choice of subjects, but in scene setting, drama and narration.
In case of shankar and SAC - prime theme always involves around human corruption and intervening role of law and justice (court climaxes or people courts aplenty)...

[TorryJens]

Why is Shankar above Criticism?
Why this insecurity? Ofcourse, he is not IR or ARR or Maniratnam or Kamal/Rajini in talent and stature so insecurity is bound to be there among people who want to somehow elevate him to the same status...

Raavanan discussions la Maniratnam ku idhey madhiri nadanduchu..
Raavanan and Endhiran songs release time la ARR..

Ippo ivanga rendu perum pathi pesuravanga secure ah pesaraangala???

Bay, why can't you simply accept that he cannot be engaging to 100 percent of the population? Why do you have to hide under "ivaingalukku shankar pidikkaadhu adhaan poi solraanga"?

Why he has to engage 100%? So when a negative criticism comes.. easiest defence is "ivaingalukku shankar pidikkaadhu adhaan poi solraanga"

Chaaru madhiri aalunga irukira varaikkum 100% kandippa endha kombanaalayum vaanga mudiyadhu..

[brraverishhh]

For the record:

Nobody was saying Enthiran should be appreciated for the *hard work*. I for one was appreciating Shankar's vision which made the job of other technicians easier. Don't twist my (our) words.

That is a management aspect - not creative. So I guess we have to leave that too at the doorsteps. If someone served me something to eat, I would only rate it going by the taste. If I were to go by the number of hours it was prepared or how efficiently the cook arranged his work area ergonomically - well that is least of my concerns. The dish should be hygenic and tasty and worth the money I spend for ordering it. I think a film critic also works by the same principle.
Apocalypse Now - one of the cult classic films was made after inordinate production delays - it reflects on the inefficiency of the production crew - but as a movie to the viewer it is a classic.
So for all the shankar lovers who appreciate Endhiran for the "sheer effort" or for "Sheer project management skills", it is appreciable - right, but not a factor to review the film.

[PhillipHer]

endhiran is a scifi subverted to aachi masala in the crudest form possible.

உங்களுக்கும் சாருவிற்கு உள்ள ஒற்றுமைகள் என்ன; வேற்றுமைகள் என்ன? கொஞ்சம் வெளக்குமாற்றால் வெளக்க முடியுமா?

[NeroASERCH]

Lets use this thread to critically analyse whatever happens in the name of criticism of thamizh films.
This is my take on Varanam Aayiram.
http://passionforcinema.com/a-thousand-elephants/
Nerd has mentioned that he finds the movie as 'half baked' and my views on VA are too glorifying.
In my opinion VA is a film, though 'distant' to me because of the demographic it portrays in the movie (urban malayalee family in madras), is still an honest movie while endhiran is a scifi subverted to aachi masala in the crudest form possible. hence I appreciate Vaaranam Aayiram though I cannot accept some points shown in the movie.
Stepping aside from specific movies, lets pull all examples of bad criticism and put it here..[/quote]

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

Originally Posted by jaiganes endhiran is a scifi subverted to aachi masala in the crudest form possible.

உங்களுக்கும் சாருவிற்கு உள்ள ஒற்றுமைகள் என்ன; வேற்றுமைகள் என்ன? கொஞ்சம் வெளக்குமாற்றால் வெளக்க முடியுமா? Jaiganesh..thodappakattaya eduthutu vaanga..

[HedgeYourBets]

How much does the hardwork put behind the movie be considered while weighing the output! Can it be considered at all? For eg., MMKR might(should) had been done relatively easier than dasavatharam - but how much can it help dasa to compete with MMKR?

In endhiran's case does using story boards have any value at all for the person who just watches the output...

[Beerinkol]

I wont discard hardwork of any film. For me Hard work shud be respected without doubt.

If a movie is too big budget, big director, music director and a super cast, i look for 2 things

1. Entertainment Quotient
2. Originality
3. Logic ( not at all places, but important pivotal scenes)

[MannoFr]

I wont discard hardwork of any film.

oruthan senthil maadhiri kaakaa ootaamaa hard work panni appalathukku Otta potutu irundhannu veyyunga..??

[doctorzlo]

you mean trying taking the ocean waters spoon by spoon and filling it in a near by 10 x 10 PaLLam?!?

No. but, in enthiran, we dont know where and what but i respect any hardwork done by anobody in the world. and i dont allow that to mix with the final opinion, review

what effect the movie's onscreen content made on me is what matters for me.

[S.T.D.]

For the record:

Nobody was saying Enthiran should be appreciated for the *hard work*. I for one was appreciating Shankar's vision which made the job of other technicians easier. Don't twist my (our) words.

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

Originally Posted by jaiganes endhiran is a scifi subverted to aachi masala in the crudest form possible.

உங்களுக்கும் சாருவிற்கு உள்ள ஒற்றுமைகள் என்ன; வேற்றுமைகள் என்ன? கொஞ்சம் வெளக்குமாற்றால் வெளக்க முடியுமா? ஒற்றுமை --> அனைவரும் அறிந்ததே
வேற்றுமை --> சாரு ஓசியாக எந்திரன் பார்த்திருப்பார், நம்ம ஜெய், $18 செலவழித்து படம் பார்த்து வெதும்பி பொயிருக்கார்.

[Paul Bunyan]

For the record:

Nobody was saying Enthiran should be appreciated for the *hard work*. I for one was appreciating Shankar's vision which made the job of other technicians easier. Don't twist my (our) words.

தயக்கமேயில்லாமல் சொல்லலாம், பாராட்டலாம். எந்திரனுக்கு பின்னால் பலரது பல நாள் கடும் உழைப்பு ஷங்கர் என்பவரின் ஆளுமையில், தலைமையில் நடந்தேறியிருக்கிறது. உலகமே ரோபோ படங்கள் எடுத்து தேர்ந்திருந்தாலும், இந்த கன்னி முயற்சி நிச்சயம் சிலாகிக்க வேண்டிய ஒன்று.

[Fegasderty]

Originally Posted by jaiganes endhiran is a scifi subverted to aachi masala in the crudest form possible.

உங்களுக்கும் சாருவிற்கு உள்ள ஒற்றுமைகள் என்ன; வேற்றுமைகள் என்ன? கொஞ்சம் வெளக்குமாற்றால் வெளக்க முடியுமா? i am a software engineer and he is a writer.
however it seems we have the same effect on you.

[TorryJens]

I think we are talking about two different things here.

1. Shankar ~= SAC. No, because SAC can't conceive a 3D animated storyboard even in his dreams. You or for that matter anybody liking the film is a different issue, but Shankar has got it in him i.e. creativity, mastery of the craft, how to make his actors act etc which are some of the things essential for a good director. So Shankar is an excellent director. And I repeat the screenwriter is different from a *director*.

2. Enthiran is a bad film. OK, I grant that to you but I just don't agree with your views and thats why I brought up VA as an example. I mean I did not like VA an inch and you seemed to have liked it. So no surprises there, we both look for different things in a film. Another example is VTV - we both are at extremes.

W.r.to Enthiran's sensibilities as a film and Shankar's sensibilities as a director so many examples have been given and of course you or anybody is more than welcome to disgaree with/BS that.

My point, which fuelled the creation of this thread is this: If one disagrees with a critic's view there is no harm in bringing in, the reviews of his for other films and try to understand if that reviewer has been consistent.

[Beerinkol]

So no surprises there, we both look for different things in a film. Another example is VTV - we both are at extremes.

I think there are tons of movies where possibly Nerd agrees with the critic jaiganes
(avaL appadiththAn / uthirippookkaL / muLLum malarum as older samples and possibly kaLavANi / Shivaji recent ones)

[HedgeYourBets]

I think there are tons of movies where possibly Nerd agrees with the critic jaiganes

This applies to all critics and their audience. And its actually extremely difficult for a critic to satisfy even one member of the audience, all the time. Baradwaj Rangan usually gets it right but I was shocked to see him praise Vamsam (one example out of many).

[LottiFurmann]

எவ்வளவுதான் Chocolate ருசியாக இருந்தாலும் அதற்கான Wrapper இல்லன்னா பப்பு வேகாது. சந்தையில் விற்பனையாகாது. ஷங்கர் Chocolate , Wrapper இரண்டையுமே நல்லா செய்து விற்பனை செய்வதில் வல்லவர்.

[tgs]

I think we are talking about two different things here.

1. Shankar ~= SAC. No, because SAC can't conceive a 3D animated storyboard even in his dreams. You or for that matter anybody liking the film is a different issue, but Shankar has got it in him i.e. creativity, mastery of the craft, how to make his actors act etc which are some of the things essential for a good director. So Shankar is an excellent director.

2. Enthiran is a bad film. OK, I grant that to you but I just don't agree with your views and thats why I brought up VA as an example. I mean I did not like VA an inch and you seemed to have liked it. So no surprises there, we both look for different things in a film. Another example is VTV - we both are at extremes.

W.r.to Enthiran's sensibilities as a film and Shankar's sensibilities as a director so many examples have been given and of course you are anybody is more than welcome to disgaree with/BS that.

My point, which fuelled the creation of this thread is this: If one disagrees with a critic's view there is no harm in bringing in, the reviews of his for other films and try to understand if that reviewer has been consistent.

Fair enough - please do not think that i got offended and that is why this new thread. I found that it is genuine not to accept a critic or reviewer's take on a film. If we can understand what aspects make a film likeable to one and unacceptable to a critic we can better understand how we appreciate movies.
Let me try my best to cover your 3 bullets.
1. SAC Vs Shankar - now this point came up because we were discussing - content wise what is Shankar formula and how different it is from SAC formula. However you and maddy took it as a personal offense on Shankar the person himself and started taking sides. As a follow up you have come up with a few points - but all of that is "Technique" or "method". how things were made. Well as a member of audience I have very little curiosity on "making" aspect. whether callsheets of "Stars" were well planned or not etc.,
2. you bringing VA into the picture is perfectly OK. you did that to check if I have applied the same yard sticks to all the movies I write about. Fair enough and honestly that is how we can appreciate a true critic - one who is honest about his/her views on what a "good film" is and as a reader we have to only compare past reviews to say if the current piece is consistent or not. However I want you to read through VA post and see if my views have changed or not. Do you think that I am a Gowtham Menon fan putting trash into endhiran thread? not possible because VTV was much hated by me and it is a well known fact.
VA - as a film is not something I loved - in fact I have mentioned that it did not catch me and make me appreciate that, yet I had to acknowledge that it was not a film that wanted me to do that - it was honest. Whereas Endhiran lacks this basic honesty. It has a flawed view on humanity - its sum decision is summarized as
1. human feelings for humanoid robots is a bad thing - because the robots will go crazy and { human feelings = (and only=) love for a woman}. - That is such a stupid conclusion to arrive at after all that first half buildup. To justify this conclusion there is a bloodbath in the climax - which is too much even if one accepts the special effects glitz.
2. human society doesnt need robots - why? no certain answer is given - a rather SAC like conclusion is arrived at - without much deliberation - that is the reason why I say that scifi genre which is all about deliberate meditation on human existence is dumbed down to aachi masala level. And content wise this is exactly what SAC would have done - hypothetically - because SAC wisely wouldnt indulge in scifi and would barely make movies in this budget.

[S.T.D.]

எவ்வளவுதான் Chocolate ருசியாக இருந்தாலும் அதற்கான Wrapper இல்லன்னா பப்பு வேகாது. சந்தையில் விற்பனையாகாது. ஷங்கர் Chocolate , Wrapper இரண்டையுமே நல்லா செய்து விற்பனை செய்வதில் வல்லவர்.

Ok .we are not discussing Shankar's abilities here. please take it to the endhiran thread or the Best director thread.