[rostpribru]

Urm, hi brothers and sisters...

Just came in this forum not too long ago... I need help in understanding words within Pottapada Sutta in DN 9

What did Buddha mean by mind made self? (Does he mean our Identity?)
What did Buddha mean by formless self? (Does he mean 'Being' in Tolle's Power of Now or "I am" or the soul theory?)

I have been searching for the answer of Anatta for sometime and I think this is the answer that I am seeking...

I felt that I know the answer yet I don't understand it and have yet arrive to that understanding but yet I feel of all the suttas I have tried to read, this is the only suttas I manage to finish reading without much resistant from within...

I feel weird... I know the answer and yet I don't understand it...

Could somebody clarify it in a very simple clarification... Please don't talk like a Buddha... this is my humble request...

[Rwujnezq]

Hi Xenusfreeman

My understanding is that the Buddha is repeating Potthapada's terms or ideas of "mind-made self" and "formless-self" to show that neither are correct views. They aren't terms or views of the self that the Buddha would subscribe to in my opinion of this sutta because he explains they are not accurate. They aren't accurate views of self because the perception (how we visualise or imagine the self to be or not be in our minds) still implies an idea of a self and any idea of a self is a wrong view in Buddha's teaching.

It is different simply because Potthapada still holds that there is an object, like a soul, called "self" in the sutta. The Buddha teaches there is no such soul or self. We are closer to a complex mix of process and urges which arise depending on other processes and urges. So we are empty of a self, but we constantly active, we are constantly feeling, thinking, perceiving which gives a sensation of self, but no real self.

That is why the Buddha shows that Potthapada's perception will be wrong if he sees the self as being "mind-made" or "formless" (even formless self implies an idea or imagined perception of a kind of self) which the Buddha denies.

The Buddha has a way of not saying "no" directly, as we would today, nor does he just come out and define what a no-self is, because he is trying to avoid defining something which simply doesn't exist. However he does explain why "mind-made self" and "formless self" are not correct:

Because they are not conducive to the goal, are not conducive to the Dhamma, are not basic to the holy life. They don't lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That's why I have taught and declared them to be non-categorical. URL http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...09.0.than.html

He also explains why they still talk about them, yet he doesn't explain his view explictly. In other words he wants us to arrive at a conclusion of anatta without actually telling us what anatta is. We must negate and negate until we arrive at a new understanding of that which we consist. Here:

"Citta, these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which the Tathagata expresses himself but without grasping to them." The "world" means way of understanding which the run-of-the-mill-view of people who have not yet studied the Dhamma still understand.

This is my understanding and my opinion. Please let me know if this raises more questions, doubt, and I will do my best to clarify.



Metta

[ebBPxIai]

Earlier, I have been reading in Buddhist cosmology...
And have come across all that was mention above...
Here is the link... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology
Is this what Buddha was trying to liberate us from?
Why he tell us to look away from?

I understand now that we should not have an identity whether it is formless, mind made or form...
And I think I am beginning to see through the illusion that is cast...

If the Buddhist Cosmology is compile rightly and maybe it is true then Buddha has hoped to liberate us from all the realm...

He also explains why they still talk about them, yet he doesn't explain his view explictly. In other words he wants us to arrive at a conclusion of anatta without actually telling us what anatta is. We must negate and negate until we arrive at a new understanding of that which we consist.

So how do I negate from it? Dhamma? Meditation?

Sorry, it seems more question arises...

[libertiespana]

He also explains why they still talk about them, yet he doesn't explain his view explictly. In other words he wants us to arrive at a conclusion of anatta without actually telling us what anatta is. We must negate and negate until we arrive at a new understanding of that which we consist.

So how do I negate from it? Dhamma? Meditation?

Sorry, it seems more question arises...

Hi!
Yes, through the eightfold path. Basically in my own words I would say we must try to be good people, so we don't suffer from a bad conscience. This will help our minds become more pure and still when we meditate. We can then meditate following instructions from the Buddha. This helps us to see that there is no core self because perception, feelings, ideas all change (anicca) and what we once clung to, or took to be "me" and "you" is really just a phenomena which will change either after a short time or at the end of the body.

It is good to keep asking quesitons, in my opinion. Although I understand there are some Buddhist schools which will encourage meditation over reading and asking questions. It is good in my opinion, because it will strengthen our understanding on why we are practising meditation and Buddhism. It is helpful too to reduce the number of questions we have without an answer (so that we have a answer from the sutta for most of our questions). This then becomes Right View (one of the eight fold path) and this in turn strenghtens our progress, helping us to be good people and to concentrate in mediation etc (all a parts of the eightfold path)

Hope this helps to answer your question

[Argurnenoni]

Urm,

I barely started buddhism two months ago... Hahahaha...
So I do not know much about buddhism in many sense of way...
I will continue to study the suttas and I might continue to post question here if I do not understand it...

Thank you for your answer... I will continue to experience and understand Buddha's teaching