[casinobonusese]

Re mercy killing (voluntary) for the aged suffering? Are there any Pali suttas engaging this area?
Also what of the intensely suffering mentally ill, what do you people think?..

[Creelaleps]

There are pali suttas of monks committing suicide due to extreme and prolonged physical pain and they seem to be enlightened according to the suttas.

[Voliscietle]

I dont know what suttas that talk about it.
But Also what of the intensely suffering mentally ill All sickness come from karmic reaction in some way, also the sickness of the brain. it can have been caused from a earlier life and that this life you have to pay the karma back.
But in any case killing is wrong in my view. even killing an mosquito on purpose is wrong.

The thinker

[Talicoabilk]

I dont know what suttas that talk about it.
But

All sickness come from karmic reaction in some way, also the sickness of the brain. it can have been caused from a earlier life and that this life you have to pay the karma back.
But in any case killing is wrong in my view. even killing an mosquito on purpose is wrong.

The thinker

How can you say that, when so much science has facts to prove the contrary?

Many people are simply born the way they are born, due to genetical flaws or biological and psychological influences. We know this.

The woman who goes insane with PTSD - Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome - from having been gang raped, and never recovers, who spends every night in her padded room rocking back and forth, remembering and reliving each moment, day after day, with no escape but suicide, which is the reason for the padded room in the first place... Is she the result of bad Karma done by herself? What do you do to deserve gang rape? Or is it from a past life, and entirely 'different' person, who just happened to have shared the same conciousness or soul, possibly a man, who himself, went about raping other women? That past life that she doesn't even remember a single bit of? That is rediculous, even hurtful to those particular individuals who have suffered such atrocities.


I believe no person has the right to deny a persons choice of wether or not to continue on.

As far as those who are not competent, but not aged, just extremely mentally ill, and not suffering any physical pain... They should be studied so as to know that suffering as deeply as possible, to prevent it in the future. As far as them being killed out of mercy, for intense phsyical, and biological pain, their families should decide that, their community, since they are not competent themselves too.But so many of those who are of extreme cases, their is no forseeable recovery for them. Many patients in Psych Wards will live the rest of their lives their, with no real recovery, ever. Like the ones who have major head injuries and have their minds erased of all experience since the accident after every 15 SECONDS. To deny a man or woman in that particular case, who say, contracts a disease that invokes nothing but tortuous pain until they literally die from the shock to the system, death, is just horrible, IMO.

As far as the aged who are suffering, such as those like my own grandmother, who has alzheimers, who as far as the mind goes, is not even really there. She suffers from arthritis, she has to have a pill each and every day to moderate her pain, which is thankfully not very severe. But now say she had parkinsens or her arthritis progressed to an extreme level to wear no drug could soothe the pain. To deny her death, and only grant her a life of extreme pain, mind you, she really cannot think on a level as you and I anymore, so there would be nothing 'but' that pain, and to deny her death, would be cruel beyond imagining.


Mercy killing is not something for any scripture in the world to decide, but for those loved ones of those suffering, and their community. After deep looking into that patients suffering, living in their shoes, seeing what they go through, that is when the decision can be made. No scripture can decide something like that.

[deethythitoth]

I can of course not talk for other who may have different opinion then i have.
But i am a Buddhist and not a scientist and i dont know anything about science. I am a religious person and that is why i can say i believe in Karma and it is one big thing in Buddhism.

-i know it can be hard for parents or some who have loved ones who have pain, but in my Cultivating i have gained deeper understanding what karma really are.

You can be disagree with me of course, and i do understand those who dont understand my view

best wish from

The thinker

[bixlewlyimila]

All sickness come from karmic reaction in some way, also the sickness of the brain. it can have been caused from a earlier life and that this life you have to pay the karma back.

Kamma isn't some kind of cosmic punishment system!

Also the Buddha said speculating about the results of kamma would drive us crazy:



AN 4.77 Acintita Sutta: Unconjecturable


"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana....


"The precise working out of the results of kamma"...


"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....077.than.html


Kamma is intentional action - and we can all see the results of our intentions in the present lifetime, without imagining that medical conditions are the result of them in some supposed past life where we did something terrible.

.

[Noxassope]

From my understanding of Karma i cant be agree with you on this Aloka but i respect your understanding and your opinion

[9uWzBx4l]

From my understanding of Karma i cant be agree with you on this Aloka but i respect your understanding and your opinion

Hi TT,

When babies were born with deformities in the 1950's as a result of their mothers being given the drug Thalidomide when pregnant, it was because of the ingredients of the drug, not because they maimed someone in a past life.

This is an article by the American teacher Ken Mcleod, former student of the late Kalu rinpoche.

"Karma Doesn't Explain Anything" ( three very small pages) which is one of 3 articles about karma on his website.

http://www.unfetteredmind.org/karma-two-approaches

excerpt:
"I feel that karma as explanation adds very little to our lives. It lulls us into the belief that there is an order to the universe, it allows us to project a universe that we would like to exist, it can be used to justify horrific inequities and rigid moral positions and in the end only replaces one mystery with another".

Anyway, my apologies, because discussing karma is diverting from the main subject of mercy killing.

[monologue]

I dont know what suttas that talk about it.
But

All sickness come from karmic reaction in some way, also the sickness of the brain. it can have been caused from a earlier life and that this life you have to pay the karma back.
But in any case killing is wrong in my view. even killing an mosquito on purpose is wrong.

The thinker

I apologise for going off topic and I'm being torn apart because half of me is saying "Gary, right speech, leave it alone" but I've got to say something because I've seen that view from TT more than once in the last few days.

Too me TT's view of karma is way off the mark, I know it's not meant to offend but......

Correct me if I'm wrong, I am a beginner:

We are all born perfect, right?
How can a baby accumulate enough negative Karma in 12 weeks that he dies of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome?
Please don't tell me it was accumulated in past lives!
That's just one example, wake up and smell the coffee, I know we're Buddhists but we're not living in fairy land.

Please forgive me if I've offended.

Deep bows, Gassho
Gary

(away to bang my head off a brick wall)

[Aleksis]

Hi Gary

Of course i am not offended by your words
The things i write about Karma are things i haev learned and understood in my own Cultivating, and also things i seen in my meditation tells me that this is how it is right to understand it but this is on my own level of understanding, I cant say my words are the deepest truth because i am not enlighten but i am on a path in my Cultivating

Glad you pointed out different view then my self, it is good for this forum

Best regards from
The thinker

[JAMES PIETERSE]

We are all born perfect, right?

We are all born...

Please don't tell me it was accumulated in past lives!

Saying it was accumulated in past lives imo encourages extremist wrong views such as pubbekatahetuvada (Past-action determinism: the belief that all happiness and suffering arise from previous kamma), which the Buddha refuted. The Buddha taught a middle way between determinism (Pubbekatahetuvada) and indeterminism (ahetuappaccayavada).

However, it is not uncommon that some patujjana minds seek moral justification for all misfortune that falls upon them in life.

[Gaxiciverfere]

Thank you Deshy

Gassho
Gary

[NeroASERCH]

In the main I agree with your sentiments. As for 'no person having the right to deny a persons choice...........'I disagree as some people may be going through a serious depressive episode that will soon be resolved, so lets not be too hasty

As for religious directives IMO these must be very carefully weighed against our secular knowledge. ....................

Good point Deshy Will look up that long word..........I see the karma/next life deal far too mechanistic.

[kuzbaslachek]

Anyone who is fully aware, mentally competent, and of age, who makes the decision with a clear mind, for whatever reason, and is outside of any psychological disorder, should have the right to choose their own death. A good example would be the old Samurai, who would kill themselves because of their Honor, to retain it, etc.

Any disease that has no cure, that makes a person suffer extreme pain for sometimes years until inevitable death, is horrible. And if a person who is mentally sound wants to end that, who are you or anyone else to say no to them?

[CorpoRasion]

I said that a depressed person would do better being informed that it may pass, rather than be encouraged to act hastily and still hold that position.
I do not think that the dichotomy between severe depression and human choice of ones death is clear enough for others to advise inappropriately. As for people dying for a cause such as suicide pilots, I would question their sanity...........................

[Msrwbdas]

And if you go to the Doctor next week, and are diagnosed with Alzheimers? What then? You are fully aware and competent to decide your own death, for now. What if you had that, but didn't want to see your family suffer, or yourself a mindless husk, but instead spend what sane moments you have left with your family and loved ones, and die when your mind is determined to be fully gone by said family and loved ones, Doctors.

I would want the choice. I have alzheimers in my family. You can't legally deny me that right. That's what I am saying. Not every person who looks at an awful future such as that and wants to die, is depressed. They simply see what they will become, know it, understand it, and do not want it.

[worldofwarcraft]

And if you go to the Doctor next week, and are diagnosed with Alzheimers? What then? You are fully aware and competent to decide your own death, for now. What if you had that, but didn't want to see your family suffer, or yourself a mindless husk, but instead spend what sane moments you have left with your family and loved ones, and die when your mind is determined to be fully gone by said family and loved ones, Doctors.

I would want the choice. I have alzheimers in my family. You can't legally deny me that right. That's what I am saying. Not every person who looks at an awful future such as that and wants to die, is depressed. They simply see what they will become, know it, understand it, and do not want it.

You have shifted my point in argument from depression to Alzheimers.
As for Alzheimers some people in their forties may get it.
The choice will probably be different for some one in their forties than someone in their eighties.
Sure people suffering greatly have right to an informed choice to end it all; this problem is fiurther highlighted when the preson in question can't do it for themselves.........

[boleroman]

Re mercy killing (voluntary) for the aged suffering? Are there any Pali suttas engaging this area?
Also what of the intensely suffering mentally ill, what do you people think?..

Depression is a given. Sorry, I didn't mean to shift anything. Obviously if someone is clinically depressed they cannot make a decision like that and be taken seriously.

I only speak of those who are mentally competent.

What suffering are you talking about? What mental ailments?

Any decision would depend on the particular suffering, there can't be generalities for this. And certainly no Sutta that can be taken seriously, unless it takes into account all different types.

For the aged suffering who are in extreme pain all day, every day, with no cure, then if they want to die, I say euthanize them. If it is biological, and there is no cure, the pain is unbearable, and there is only more of it to come, then why not? So long as it is something they want. You and I certainly couldn't understand what they are going through.

As far as the mentally ill, usually, no, don't even bother discussing it. Except in cases such as Alzheimers. There is no cure for that, and should someone be diagnosed with it, and they only want to continue on so long as they are capable of knowjng that they are 'alive', then when the point comes to where they are an empty husk, why not go through with their final wish? My grandmother has that, and sadly, that is exactly what happens, her mind is now so deteriorated that their is no capability of conversation, she can't even recognise anyone in her family. I mean this with respect, it is the only way I can describe it, she is an empty 'husk', there is nothing there anymore. But say, should she have had told us when she was first diagnosed, that she wanted to be euthanized when the 'emptiness' came, who are we to deny her that? It's in my family, and I know personally, that I will have that in a written contract/testimony, to be given to my doctor and family at the time, stating that I want to die at the time of complete 'emptiness'.

[Malinguenem]

Hi all,

As this thread is in our beginners forum, its worth me mentioning that the 5 precepts start with not to kill.

The Five Precepts:

1. Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.

2. Adinnadana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given.

3. Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct.

4. Musavada veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech.

5. Suramerayamajja pamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.


If people decide to break the first precept for whatever reason, its entirely up to them - however, it is not appropriate here to get into heated arguments about it with others who disagree about breaking it.

In general, BWB is intended as a website for friendly and relaxed discussions between members from different traditions or who are complete beginners.

I think its also worth me mentioning that some people can become discouraged from posting if they see threads where they feel others are pushing their opinions in an argumentative way.

Thanks

[RaicickKida]

If If the first precept categorcally states ' to refrain from destroying living creatures' is an absolute this seems to prevent further discussion, let alone the "pushing their opinions in an argumentative way".
It would seem I am left with absolutely nothing to contribute, for fear of upsetting the general consensus............................. Best I try elsewhere