[TaliaJack]

Hi David

Yes, you can certainly take the Refuge by yourself without a teacher and repeating it to oneself (in English) can be a source of comfort and inspiration. Its also possible to take it formally offline later if you choose to practice with a particular tradititon.

This article "Buddha,Dhamma, Sangha' by Ven Ajahn Sumedho might be of some help to you.

http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma2/bds.html

excerpt from the article:

The word Buddha is a lovely word, it means 'the one who knows', and the first refuge is in Buddha as the personification of wisdom. Unpersonified wisdom remains too abstract for us, we can't conceive a bodiless, soulless wisdom, and so as wisdom always seems to have a personal quality to it, using Buddha as its symbol is very useful.

We can use the word Buddha to refer to Gotama, the founder of what is now known as Buddhism, the historical sage who attained Parinibbana in India 2500 years ago, the teacher of the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path, teachings from which we today still benefit.

But when we take refuge in the Buddha it doesn't mean that we take refuge in some historical prophet but in that which is wise in the universe, in our minds, that which is not separate from us but is more real than anything we can conceive with the mind or experience through the senses. Without any Buddha-wisdom in the universe life for any length of time would be totally impossible, it is the Buddha-wisdom that protects.

.

I also think what he says here is especially important:


It is not a matter of believing in Buddha Dhamma Sangha, not a faith in concepts but a using of symbols for mindfulness, for awakening the mind here-and-now, being here-and-now

[pharmablogger]

Hi Dave,

Tradition hopping is very common, even among monks. If you want to practice Zen (or whatever) later you can definitely do that.

I can see why you're eager to take refuge -- I'm thinking you're probably desperate to get away from the nasty Christianity you grew up with, and officially joining a different tradition might make a big difference for you, yes? So, I'm not discouraging it. However, please remember that you almost certainly will bump into more doctrines you don't immediately agree with while exploring Buddhism in depth.

Brad Warner, an American Zen Buddhist monk who ordained in Japan, practiced for 15 years before taking refuge. He still doesn't call himself a Buddhist. Neither do I, by the way. Makes things a lot easier for me. For others like yourself it might be different, of course.

I've posted so many videos already, but if you wanna hear Brad's take on it, search for "brad warner how do i become a buddhist" on YouTube.

I think someone like you could really benefit from spending time with a real Buddhist community, by the way. I say this because certain so-called Christians consider Buddhists agents of satan and you're likely to run into a lot of harsh criticism and outright hatred for your beliefs. It's good to be surrounded by other like minded individuals. I suggest you investigate what's available in your area. There's Buddhism all over the US today.

[AXGreg]

Aloka-D, thank you for posting that site for me. I read the exerpts from the article. I will look at that site and read from it. Thanks again for the advice. It is good to get some clarification about taking refuge. I appreciate the help.

soundtrack, thank you for all of the good advice. I will look at that video that you suggested. I honestly was a loyal atheist for probably months before getting interested in Buddhism again. I don't consider myself labled as anything now.

For some reason I find comfort in feeling like I belong to something. I would like to feel like i'm a part of another spiritual tradition.I think it would help me to take refuge, because it would I think give me more focus. I will eventually look up some Buddhist groups near where I live. It is just a matter of getting to them.

I don't have car insurance or mass transit where I live, so that can make things difficult when it comes to traveling to a certain location.

I know that the I that I speak of is impermanent. It is just hard not of speak of I and me. I really do appreciate all of your advice. Thanks again.

[G8whlTAe]

Hi David and everyone else on this thread.

This is a great platform that you have started David. I have recently taken refuge after meditating for many years. I felt the need to formalise my spiritual life.


Take a little of the pressure off yourself and start looking around. You'll see lots of people suffering from their own environmental conditioning. I fully understand your sentiments concerning racism.

My personal view which I don't expect you to adhere to is, that racism is an inadequate word to really connect to this kind of suffering. I live in a country where many communities co-exist. They rarely mingle and even eating with each other seems to be an insurmountable task for some people.

I feel 'intolerance' is a word that helps me to find a balance of responsibility in my own internal life. We assume with racism that there is a majority oppressing a minority. In fact, speaking with most people you find that they can be very intolerant of some group or other. It is very sad, that some young people where I live, hate the country where they live and the people even though they were actually born here.


Over and above environmental conditioning, try to identify your own intolerance and the fears that are connected to them.

Thank you again for starting this thread.

Gyaltsen

[WelcomeMe]

dear david ,

sorry I am comming in on this question a little late so I'll try to address main points ,

in this post you ask about anger ?

and talk about racism , family background and christianity .

you mention allso buddhist refuge ,

(this subject I have allready discussed in a seperate thread ) , so I'll return to this subject at the end , because it is the best bit

so , I will start with the not so happy bits first , but do not worry this feeling of struggling comes to most of us at some time in our lives , and living with ones parents can be difficult especialy when one grows up to find that not all values are shared !

on the subject of racism , for some of the older generations the racist veiws that they hold have been handed down for generations and have come about through fear of the unknown , the younger generations have had more experience of living in a multi cultural world , they have had more chance to get to know people of other races ,

I have experienced this first hand with my family , they are uncomfortable in the company of anyone outside of their own culture , and sometimes stupid things have been said which I try to egnore rather than start an arguement .
but what I have decided to do , is to forgive them for their ignorance , not to argue with them because it generaly makes things worse , but not to enter into discussion about it as it will not change their veiw , and might cause me to feel angry !

I have deciced that the best thing I could do is to , is to say to my self o.k.....the ignorance stops here , ........you canot correct others , but one can correct oneself .
now for you ? there is no need for you to be angry , dont be angry at them and dont be angry at yourself ! you are in the position to say anger stops here , o.k. ...it might take a little practice to stop your self from feeling anger ,

but remember to keep reminding yourself this anger never accheived anything but more anger , so as you would in meditation keep reminding yourself not to attatch to that feeling when it comes along .

and as for thinking that you are a bad person ? well we all have done some things that we are not proud of , but once we identify them as bad we start the process of changing our behavior , so you can say o.k. ... I did do some stupid things , prehaps that was bad , but I now realise and I am trying to change , so you are no longer a bad person , you are a new changing person

christianity ? this has allready been said , but there are good christians and bad christians , just as there are good buddhists and bad buddhists, again it is better to simply hold on to the good ones and try to avoid the bad , I am affraid it is true that you will meet ignorance and stupidity every where it is an unfortunate fact of life , so just try to focus on the good !

which brings me back to refuge ,

yes you can very simply go for refuge as we disscussed before when we were talking about the site you first mentioned in another thread . when I first started practicing I followed very similar instructions from a book , it was many years after that I formaly took refuge vows (which simply counts as a blessing ) (one does not need it to start )all one needs to take refuge is a mind that is willing to accept the love , help and blessings of the buddha .

now before I sign off I would like to tell you a little about my refuge prayer , my tradition is mahayana , so it is a regular part of our daily prayer that when we go for refuge not only do we go for refuge for our own benifit ,

but when we are practiced in this we generate a mind which thinks to take refuge for all living beings (particularly those experiencing suffering of any kind) , so when you are finding things a little difficult remember that all over the world every day other buddhists are taking refuge equaly for them selves and for you .

so when you take refuge you are never alone , you have an invisible but very real sangha ,
remember allso that refuge means shelter , the ultimate shelter is the buddha and his teachings the dharma ., and beyond that you have the shelter of the sangha , every one of us !

so if you have any particula problem in your mind surrender it to buddha , take his shelter
and remember you are amongst friends :hug:

namaskars ratikala

[Bletlemof]

Gyaltsen, thank you for thinking it is a great platform. I am happy for you that you have taken refuge. I am glad that you understand my sentiments concerning racism.

I find your post to be very insightful. I will make an effort to identify my intolerance and the fears I have connected to them. I have absolutely no problem with your personal view. Thank you for being kind to me.

ratikala, you do not need to be sorry for time of responding. My initial post on this thread was about how I just felt really angry and hateful towards racists and Christians. I don't feel that way now. I guess feelings come and go.
I am really sorry that I have posted so much about taking refuge. I just worry about how to become an "official" Buddhist.

I was very thankful for you giving me advice about that one website that I had posted on another thread. I still am thankful or your advice. Yeah. I can totally relate to how you feel about not being able to change your parents views. I understand how that would most likely lead to anger. You talking about being a new changing person really helps me out.

It makes me not feel guilty like I was feeling. I will try to just focus on the good. I still plan on taking taking refuge while using information from that site that I shared with on you on that other thread. I don't feel like I have learned enough about Buddhism yet to take refuge.

I want to learn more of the basics first. I feel like I can do this without taking a really long time if I can just focus. I may be wrong but I think I can learn the very basics of Buddhism if I put my mind to it in a not long amount of time. Thank you letting me know that you and other Buddhists take refuge for all living beings including me.

I suffer a lot and it is good to know that there are Buddhists who take a refuge for the suffering including all living beings. I am not sure at all what school of Buddhism that I will choose but I do feel slightly leaning towards Mahayana Buddhism. Thank you so much for encouraging me about my sangha. I really appreciate your kind words. I will remember to surrender problems in my mind to buddha. Thank you very much again for your continued support.

To everyone who has posted, thank you. I may be redundant asking this and I am very sorry if I am, but is someone who takes refuge alone less of a Buddhist than someone who takes a formal refuge with a monk or master? I am deeply sorry if i'm annoying anybody by asking similar things over and over again.

I just really want to know if it makes someone "more" Buddhist. Thank you again to anyone who has read and or responded to my posts. I really do appreciate all of you.

Moderators NOTE:

*--David, please, try to write in short paragraphs. Some members here suffer from visual migraine--*

[Tibaveriafark]

Kaarine, I understand. I didn't understand at first. You changed my message to little paragraphs. I will write in little paragraphs from now on. I am sorry that it was one big paragraph. Please forgive me. I did not know that it was possibly causing some members to suffer. I am sorry.

To anyone who reads this, I asked in the previous message if you are "more" Buddhist if you take a formal refuge with a monk or master. I think this is based out of my own fear of not being officially "Buddhist" if I take refuge alone. I am unable to take refuge officially with a monk or master.

However, I am very interested on what anyone thinks about that. So please comment if you feel like it.

[PNCarl]

I am sorry.

Don't worry... there is no problem David,

[aparneioninny]

I appreciate your kind understanding.

[eXC3Kvnn]

To anyone who reads this, I asked in the previous message if you are "more" Buddhist if you take a formal refuge with a monk or master. I think this is based out of my own fear of not being officially "Buddhist" if I take refuge alone. I am unable to take refuge officially with a monk or master.

However, I am very interested on what anyone thinks about that. So please comment if you feel like it.

Hello David,

To think that one is more Buddhist if we take a formal refuge with a monk, master, roshi, lama, or tradition or school seems to be quite wrong.

To take refuge in Buddha and his Dhamma is about your personal commitment to follow the teachings in absolute confidence. That confidence that has grown in heart and mind.

The confidence arises when having understood and having practiced the teaching, there is the experience of a more peaceful mind, a feeling of joy and happiness in our heart.

The teachings of Buddha are for all us to take refuge in them no matter of time, place and circumstances.

Traditions are important. They can give you support. A Sangha from where you can feel in good companion and sincere friendship...

But if there is no temple, no Sangha, no Guru or great teacher around by the moment... to take refuge in Buddha and his Dhamma with full confidence, in heart and in mind is what is important.

At the root of "taking refuge" is the sincere commitment you take with your teacher -the Buddha- and his teaching -the Dhamma- so to follow his path to quench suffering/stress/discomfort.

It seems that not having a Sangha and a temple at hand, by now you will need some time to get acquainted with the teachings of Buddha.

Give time to explore this place as a first step and keep in touch with us here.

What The Buddha Taught

Remember: Save some time for the practice of breathing, David, and one more for the study of the teachings.

[Tazqoaap]

I may be redundant asking this and I am very sorry if I am, but is someone who takes refuge alone less of a Buddhist than someone who takes a formal refuge with a monk or master? I am deeply sorry if i'm annoying anybody by asking similar things over and over again.
Hi David,

At the moment, I sense you are in a questioning phase of your life. When I took formal refuge, it was after a long period of inner questioning. Today, you could give yourself permission to follow the Buddhist precepts informally as an introductory step. You decide your beliefs. You are your own sanctuary where you can find a place of refuge.

There are some great places on the net where you can download Dharma talks in MP3 that will help you to connect to the different communities that make up the vastness of the Buddhist tradition. Give yourself time to naturally discover which of these communities can best support you in your inner quest.

I think your parents could be supportive when they see that you are building a spiritual life that in no way threatens their own beliefs and you are maturing in your own right as an adult. It can be very daunting as a parent to watch your children seemingly move away from everything that you know to be so important.

Kindest regards

Gyaltsen

[Immonnaornach]

However, I do not know what I should think about my anger and hate towards Christianity. I hate the hypocrisy of Christians who claim to love Jesus and have absolutely no problem with forcing their beliefs on others and starting wars in the name of God. I just don't know a better way to explain why I feel the way I do. However, I don't hate all Christians. I do not hate my family. I just have so much negativity in me right now. I also feel like i'm a very lustful person. I may have a lot of flaws.

With all of that said. I don't want to have hatred or anger in me at all. I want to get rid of these negative emotions because they are in the way of me becoming Enlightened. I also know that hatred is harmful to society. I do believe that all races are equal and science supports that.

I feel like a terrible person, and I am ashamed of myself.

hello David

i read your post, which was articulated very well, showing insight into your self & your situation

my initial response is to just say to take your transition slowly, patiently, with trust

personally, i believe your hatred will drop away naturally as you become more inwardly certain & confident about what is genuinely right (beneficial) & wrong (unbeneficial)

already, you have described some wonderful transformation & growth in wisdom about racism

when what is truely 'right' & 'wrong' are known by the heart, the compassion generated by this will melt away hatred

as for lust and becoming Enlightened, i can only suggest to soften around this

lust is an instinct all human beings are born with & share

only in time will you realise whether your life is to be devoted towards Enightenment or whether you must channel your "lust" in harmless & moral ways (such as life partner, marriage, etc)

you do not sound like a terrible person to me. in fact, your post describing your awakening was very inspiring to read

with metta (friendliness)

element

[yespkorg]

Thank you guys for responding to my posts. I am sorry that my message today is not very long. I have benefited from all the posts that I read today. I will continue to learn more about Buddhism. I did discover something today that troubled me a lot. I read online that in Mahayana Buddhism they believe that one of the three persons of the Buddha is divine.

I don't believe and will not believe in anything divine. I don't know if that gets in the way of me pursuing Buddhism. Thanks again for your kind words and your posts. It means me that I got such thoughtful responses. Once again I apolgize for the short message and my lack of direct responses.

[KeestRast]

I don't believe and will not believe in anything divine.

It is OK not to believe in anything divine.

The teachings of Buddha are not about to believe.

The Buddha didn't ask to believe in him as someone divine.

He ask to follow his teachings, to understood them, to practice them and to evaluate the results as having peacefulness, joyfulness and content in the here and now.

This is a particular case of the Mahayana tradition. Perhaps some member with a clear understanding about that can give his personal opinion.

If not believing in divine entities is what comforts you, please, keep exploring "What the Buddha Taught". Seems this can fit better with your needs.

Many Buddhists and some traditions like the "Thai Forest Tradition" do not hold on divine entities to quench suffering.

I don't know if that gets in the way of me pursuing Buddhism. Absolutely NOT.

[Doncarlito]

As some of you know. I am new to Buddhism, so I guess this is the right forum where I should post this. I hope that what I have written does not offend anyone. I am very sorry if I will offend anyone. Please let me know if you think this is appropriate to share. I just felt like I needed to write this out. I don't like dealing with negative emotions. In hindsight i'm not sure if I should have posted this, but I am going to leave it up hoping someone can relate.

I want to tell you guys about something that is really bothering me. I can't think of a better place to express what i'm feeling than a Buddhist website. To explain what i'm feeling I think I need to start off by explaining some background of why I feel the way I do.

When I was born my dad was a Protestant Christian Minister. He was a United Methodist Minister. I grew up for the most part as a preachers kid. I was taught about the Christian idea of God and heard about it a whole lot growing up. I was required by my family to go to church on Sundays. I forgot to mention that I was also born in the south of the USA and grew up mainly in small towns in North Carolina where there was a whole lot of racism. For most of my childhood I grew up believing that black people were less important than white people. I even used the n word and when I was in middle school I drew a confederate flag and kept it on my bedroom door. I hated black people. For some reason I never had a problem with any other races for the most part. My mom and her side of the family was particuraly racist. Not all of them were but there are a lot of them who were. My dad is not very racist but I identified with my moms family the most growing up. My moms mother and grandmother are and were very racist.

My dad left the United Methodist Church and we moved down to Florida. He left the United Methodist Ministry and was still a preacher though because he started his own church in Florida. The new church didn't do so well so he ended up giving up being a preacher. I gradually stopped being racist as I got older. Getting out of North Carolina really helped me to get rid of my racism. As an adult I don't feel racist much at all. I maybe am a tiny bit because of the childhood exposure against black people but I fight against those thoughts or feelings because I know they are wrong.

I am struggling because I am still living with my parents and they are still both devout Christians. My mom is racist and it really gets under my skin. She says racist things and it makes me angry. I have a lot of anger right now. I also have a bad self image because I am overweight and have struggled with my weight for most of my life. I got made fun of a lot as a kid. I also did my share of bullying. I guess I was just taking out my anger on people who had nothing to do with hurting my emotions.

I suppose i'm getting a little side tracked writing this. I just feel like a terrible person. It is thanksgiving day here in the states and i'm feeling horrible. I have a hard time getting along with my parents. I honestly have a lot of hate against Christianity. I know that is wrong and is harmful to me, but I just feel this way. In the past I have known Christianity intimately. I have been a Protestant Christian and i've also been confirmed as a Roman Catholic Christian. Right now I am studying Buddhism and want to be Buddhist. However, I do not know what I should think about my anger and hate towards Christianity. I hate the hypocrisy of Christians who claim to love Jesus and have absolutely no problem with forcing their beliefs on others and starting wars in the name of God. I just don't know a better way to explain why I feel the way I do. However, I don't hate all Christians. I do not hate my family. I just have so much negativity in me right now. I also feel like i'm a very lustful person. I may have a lot of flaws.

With all of that said. I don't want to have hatred or anger in me at all. I want to get rid of these negative emotions because they are in the way of me becoming Enlightened. I also know that hatred is harmful to society. I do believe that all races are equal and science supports that.

I feel like a terrible person, and I am ashamed of myself. Maybe it is because of the holiday today. I don't know.

I just want to say a few words to you.

You are a very brave person. I feel that you have struggled hard and struggled alone, with little or no help from your family, to rid yourself of feelings that you know to be terribly wrong and which, from a spiritual standpoint are entirely counterproductive.

You have fought against something that, due to ignorance of your parents and theirs and their community, was placed into your mind when you were far too young and helpless to do anything about it. When you're 2 years old you depend on your parents for absolutely everything in the world. They are God to you; they hold the power of life and death over you. What they tell you about the world heavily influences the way you see the world.

Despite that you came to understand that racism degrades you as much as it might harm other beings.

As for your hate of Christianity, the way it has been practiced by members of your family and others close to you is clearly far out of line with that Jesus actually taught. I am not a Christian but, I can find no fault with what Jesus stated on issues of morality. So, why hate the religion itself as the collection of what Jesus said; his words alone are not propagating wars, racism, sexism, income inequality, or globalization. In fact, it's pretty clear that Jesus, were he alive today, would oppose all of those things. Those who are charged with carrying out his words, his ideas, have managed to pervert them and use them to harm beings.

Ignorance is the thing to hate. As Shantideva said, if someone were to shoot you with an arrow do you hate the cause of your pain? No, you don't hate the arrow at all. Then why hate the shooter, who was, no doubt propelled by ignorance, craving, clinging, etc. to commit this deed. Naturally it's hard to reach that point in our moral development, but we can keep trying.

And yes, please just consider all the wonderful things you've done, your struggles to cast off negative mental states, your triumph in achieving the kind of mind that would even consider the practice of Buddhism, given your history, and upbringing.

Anyway...I hope you enjoyed something about Thanksgiving and I hope you also feel great love and compassion for your family, who want the same thing as you do, ultimately....happiness.

[i32I7qyH]

Thank you guys for responding to my posts. I am sorry that my message today is not very long. I have benefited from all the posts that I read today. I will continue to learn more about Buddhism. I did discover something today that troubled me a lot. I read online that in Mahayana Buddhism they believe that one of the three persons of the Buddha is divine.

I don't believe and will not believe in anything divine. I don't know if that gets in the way of me pursuing Buddhism. Thanks again for your kind words and your posts. It means me that I got such thoughtful responses. Once again I apolgize for the short message and my lack of direct responses.

Hi david;

Buddhism has no place for the divine. No buddha ever existed that was not a human being prior to becoming a Buddha (maybe there are other life forms that have become Buddhas but I've not read of them). Buddhas achieve their status through practice. Divinity has nothing to do with it. Unfortunately those who worship Buddhas as if they're divine might create the wrong impression. There are plenty of people who misunderstand the fundamental tenets of Buddhism, perhaps as many as who misunderstand the teachings of Jesus.

The Mahayana says that Buddhas achieve various powers, all of which are geared towards helping beings (by knowing their minds, even from a distance, by being able to quickly reach them, and by knowing how to best help them according to their abilities). These abilities and powers are very different from the concept of omnipotence, which means having power to physically change the universe, to control it, to destroy it. Buddhas have none of those powers. They have the ability to teach and to know the minds of those who may benefit from their teaching. BTW, they lack the ability to confer enlightenment or happiness on anyone. They teach, and it's always up to the student to see if the teachings make any sense and, if they do, to practice them properly to achieve the desired result....it's like a doctor who prescribes a course of medicine and therapy; you have to follow all the instructions correctly.

There are differences between Mahayana and Theravada understanding of the abilities of a Buddha; it's true that Mahayana understanding endows the Buddha with greater powers and with the ability to remain a Buddha for vast periods of time....pretty much indefinitely, until all sentient beings are liberated, at least. Yet, still, Buddhas are not divine because their origin is humble....they were once one of us.

Take care

tj

[seperalem]

Thank you guys for all of your responses. All of them have comforted me and given me encouragement. I apologize for not giving detailed responses to what was said to me. But, I am always amazed at the thoughtful responses that I receive on this site. It means a lot to me. Please forgive me for not giving a lengthy response. I do not mean to be ungratelful or rude. Thank you again for all of your well thought out responses. It means a lot to me.

[bataovady]

Please forgive me for not giving a lengthy response.

Don't worry David...

"Small is Beautiful"

[JorgiOLusinio]

Thanks