[D6Ri5u13]

Hello everyone,

One of the things that i ve learned since i joined this forum is how to differenciate between rebirth (Buddhism) and reincarnation (Hinduism), However, the stories i ve read and the movies i ve watched in relation to the rebirth of some Lamas in Tibet made me confused.

As you know, the Dalai Lama is believed by his devotees to be the rebirth of of a long line of tulkus who are considered to be manifestations of the bodhisattva of compassion. When the old Lama or a senior monk passes away, the search for his rebirth starts (i dont quite understand the process) but once a candidate is found, the testing process starts by asking the candidate to choose one item out of few similar items (such as glasses, bowls ...etc). If the cadidate picks the correct item then that confirms that he/she is the rebirth of the previous lama!

According to Buddhism, everything is impermenant, and there is no real self that is unconidtioned by cause and effect hence the idea of the self is a delusion. In addition, there are other factors which affect the fruition of Karma (which means affecting our personalities, perceptions and preferences) such as birth place, the suitablitiy of our bodies, the time we are born into, and the attribute of our actions. Those factors differs significantly when rebirth occurs as the newly reborn will have different genes, different environment, different time which (scientifically speaking) must result in a totally different personality and preferences than the ones we had in our previouse lives.

My question is: if everything is impermenant, and with the absence of a real self that is unconditioned by cause and effect (a soul), and when we take the above factors that affects the fruition of karma into consideration, why would the newly born Lama chooses the same items as in his previous lives?

My second question is: what led the Buddha to deny the existance of a a permenant soul? and what Buddhists say about the stories we hear about people experiencing their souls departing from there bodies?

Thank you in advance.

Regards,
Bundokji

[Symnunidanimb]

Hello Bundokji,

Buddhism is full of "-isms" and each "-ism" has it's particular consideration about the subject of rebirth and reincarnation.

There are few traditions that do not consider such believes as an important issue, like the Thai Forest Tradition and some reformed Soto Zen schools.

Reincarnation is a central aspect of Tibetan Culture and religion as, for example, the Nahual for some indigenous cultures in Mexico.

It seems to me that Buddha neither taught Rebirth nor Reincarnation. Seems a kind of later additional elaboration maybe in the need, for some, to keep the hope of a next existence under whatever possibility.

Personally, I have never understood what is meant by Rebirth as it goes, IMO, against the non self doctrine. I do not consider rebirth as importnat.

There are Buddhists that held that believe tightly and others just keep it aside.

Rebirth as Reincarnation too, are, IMO, a believe subject just to speculation or philosophical struggle and do not corresponds to the main attainments of the Natural Law taught by Buddha.

This has been a very heated debate here and for Buddhists in general.

[Vigeommighica]

Hi Bundokji, belief in the reincarnation, re-discovery, and re-education of lamas(tulkus) is something which occurs only in Tibetan Buddhism. It's not, for example, a feature of Zen or of Theravada Buddhism.

[carreraboyracer]

Hello Kaarline and Aloka,

How Tibtan Buddists believe in it while it contradicts with other concepts of Buddism?

So far, i find everything in Buddhism agrees with logic and common sense except the idea of rebirth. As you know, doubt is considered to be a negative thing in Buddhism, so if rebirth does not make sense to me, does that mean i cant be a Buddhist?

Please read what the following link says about doubt.

http://viewonbuddhism.org/delusions_...oneliness.html

Cheers

[krasniyluch]

There are few traditions that do not consider such believes as an important issue, like the Thai Forest Tradition Tell that to Ajahn Brahm

The idea of rebirth was a world view long before the Buddha came along and played little or no part in his philosophy on anguish and the ending of anguish.

[regfortruegoo]

Hi Bundokji,

If you develop conviction/faith in the practice of the teachings of the Buddha, you don't need to have an opinion one way or another about rebirth. This life is the important one in the here and now, anything else is just speculative.

[Promalada]

Hello Kaarline and Aloka,

How Tibetan Buddhists believe in it while it contradicts with other concepts of Buddhism?

It happens. I can not tell too much about Tibetan Buddhism but their culture seems to have blend with the teachings of Buddha along the centuries.

So far, i find everything in Buddhism agrees with logic and common sense except the idea of rebirth. As you know, doubt is considered to be a negative thing in Buddhism, so if rebirth does not make sense to me, does that mean i cant be a Buddhist? No way Bundokji. Many practitioners of the teachings of Buddha do not consider rebirth in their practice. It does not make any sense to me, too.

Please read what the following link says about doubt. Some people have understood that the Buddha told about doubting at everything he taught. I don't think that was the case. What Buddha asked was to verify his teachings through understanding, practice and the evaluation of such practice that should lead to the cessation of suffering as a result of living the Natural Law.

http://viewonbuddhism.org/delusions_...oneliness.html

Cheers Thanks for the link...

While doubt is an obstacle you do not need to believe just because in things like rebirht so to practice what Buddha taught. The author is Sogyal Rimpoche and he thightly holds someting that seems Buddha did not teach.

[huerta]

Tell that to Ajahn Brahm

Yes. I have little experience with his teachings. It is told that he seems to believe in rebirth.

[betraaaus]

The idea of rebirth was a world view long before the Buddha came along and played little or no part in his philosophy on anguish and the ending of anguish.

That is the pertinent point as I understand it too and I don't need to have an opinion one way or another about rebirth. This life is the important one in the here and now. Tibetan culture is another thing altogether. Hope that helps, Bundokji.

[ingeneensueva]

My second question is: what led the Buddha to deny the existance of a a permenant soul? and what Buddhists say about the stories we hear about people experiencing their souls departing from there bodies?

hello Bundokji

my answer:

the Buddha denied the existence of a permanent soul because he could not find one. in his intimate observation (meditation) of his body & mind, all he could find was physical & mental phenomena, such as physical matter (the body), feelings (of pleasure & pain), perceptions (labelling), thinking (mental fabricating) and consciousness (sense awareness).

the Buddha found "self" is just a thought generated by craving & attachment. when craving & attachment ended, "self" disappeared

the Buddha found "self" is a tendency of mind that attaches to or "appropriates" (takes possession) of things

for example, the body & nervous system feel pain and the mind appropriates the pain by thinking "I hurt", "I am in pain". for the mind that is fully observant, there is just pain. but for the mind that appropriates, it turns mere pain into "my pain"

the same with consciousness. consciousness sees, hears, smells, tastes, touches & cognises via the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body & mind. for the mind that is fully observant, there is just seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, etc. but for the mind that appropriates, it turns sense consciousness into "I see", "I hear", "I taste", "I smell", etc

the same with the body. the body came from two tiny cells (sperm & ovum) and grew due to being nourished by physical food, such as milk, rice, corn, apples, oranges, fish, etc. this body come from "external" things but, for the mind that appropriates, it turns this physical body into "my body"

therefore, in summary, when the body is seen as 'body', the feelings are seen as 'feelings', the perceiving is seen as 'perceiving', the thinking is seen as 'thinking' and consciousness is seen as 'consciousness', there is nothing remaining in life that can be found. there is no soul or independent 'self-essence' that can be found within or apart from these five parts of life

the difficult part is the thinking. the concept of 'self' arises in the thinking. the thinking is fuelled by feelings & cravings

this is why in Buddhism, meditation starts with calming down & stilling the thinking, to allow the mind to see clearly

such seeing (like a Buddha) is not easy. for many (partially) enlightened beings, 'selfing' still occurs because 'selfing' is a natural psychological tendency (but merely a tendency rather than a permanent entity)

regards

element

[NikolaAAA]

and what Buddhists say about the stories we hear about people experiencing their souls departing from there bodies?

my opinion:

the same as i said above, which is, this is just attachment (and also beguilement)

in very deep meditation (jhana), which occurs after the mental stress or sensations within the physical body are completely tranquilised, the mind merges within itself and becomes and is aware of itself as exceptionally radiant

those who near death are probably the same. the body is shutting down, awareness ceases to be pre-occuppied with the body and is only aware of the radiance or white light in the mind as the mind neurologically blisses out due to not feeling the stresses of the body

thus, when the doctors revive these people & they return to ordinary consciousness, all they can remember the radiance & white light that occurred to the mind as it somehow disconnected itself from awareness of the body due to the shutting down of the body

but then....the minds of the people succumb to attachment...they are beguiled by the experience...they appropriate "my soul"

all they experienced was radiant white light, that is all

but they then interpretated this radiant white light to be "my soul"

the neurons in their brain were exploding into white lights of bliss, with all kinds of endorphins, chemicals, etc, going off, etc

but these neurological & chemical reactions, these little nuclear atomic explosions, they interpretated as "my soul"

kind regards

element

[avodeinst]

One of the things that i ve learned since i joined this forum is how to differenciate between rebirth (Buddhism) and reincarnation (Hinduism), However, the stories i ve read and the movies i ve watched in relation to the rebirth of some Lamas in Tibet made me confused.

hi again, Bundokji

on You Tube, at the top of the list under 'Buddhism', there is a lecture by the Dalai Lama called 'Introduction to Buddhism'

in this lecture, the Dalai Lama states we should never think the Buddha contradicted himself when some of his teachings seem to be contradictory

the Dalai Lama explains the Buddha simply gave different teachings based on the different dispositions of different audiences

similarly, in the original Buddhist scriptures, the Buddha taught that he taught two kinds of Right View

kind regards

Element

[Mello]

I have probably said this here before, I like the term "selfing" - a verb: it captures how it is a process, comes about from our thinking.

[bumxumer]

my opinion:

the same as i said above, which is, this is just attachment (and also beguilement)

in very deep meditation (jhana), which occurs after the mental stress or sensations within the physical body are completely tranquilised, the mind merges within itself and becomes and is aware of itself as exceptionally radiant

those who near death are probably the same. the body is shutting down, awareness ceases to be pre-occuppied with the body and is only aware of the radiance or white light in the mind as the mind neurologically blisses out due to not feeling the stresses of the body

thus, when the doctors revive these people & they return to ordinary consciousness, all they can remember the radiance & white light that occurred to the mind as it somehow disconnected itself from awareness of the body due to the shutting down of the body

but then....the minds of the people succumb to attachment...they are beguiled by the experience...they appropriate "my soul"

all they experienced was radiant white light, that is all

but they then interpretated this radiant white light to be "my soul"

the neurons in their brain were exploding into white lights of bliss, with all kinds of endorphins, chemicals, etc, going off, etc

but these neurological & chemical reactions, these little nuclear atomic explosions, they interpretated as "my soul"

kind regards

element

Hi Element,

Your opinion seems pretty feasible and consistent with what I have been told by people who have had near death experiences. Not wanting to derail the discussion, I also find that client's I work with, in particular I am thinking of a woman who has panic disorder, who experience induced states ( hers was drug induced ) can find the experience terrifying and difficult to reconcile. I believe explanations like the concept of a soul emerge to try and bring words and understanding to relieve this.

[Kimaamighed]

This Teaching is not about Lamas in a specific way, but does touch on the issue of Rebirth

A Teaching by Kalu Rinpoche
Understanding the Need for Spiritual Practice
A Teaching by Kyabje Dorje Chang Kalu Rinpoche
Kagyu Thubten Chöling Monastery, 1986

In order to practice the Dharma taught by the Buddha it is necessary, at the outset, to establish confidence in its validity.

First we must understand that we have had countless lives in the past and will continue to have countless lives until we attain the level of a Buddha or Bodhisattva. Belief in the existence of previous and future lives gives rise to confidence in the truth of karma, the effects of actions. This confidence is based on understanding that unvirtuous actions lead to suffering and virtuous actions lead to happiness. Without this conviction, we will not abandon unvirtuous actions or perform virtuous ones.



We can reach this conviction by examining the signs of the workings of karma in the world around us. Although we are all born as human beings, each person experiences different circumstances, such as a long or short life, mental happiness or misery, and wealth or poverty. These variations in individual circumstances arise through previous karma accumulated in former lifetimes. Even animals have a sense that actions lead to results. They know enough to look for food when they are hungry, water when they are thirsty, and shade when they are hot.

If one has no confidence in the existence of past or future lives or in the truth of the effects of karma, then one will have no appreciation of Buddhism or any other religion. The practices of all religions are based on the intention to benefit oneself and others in a future existence.

The Buddha taught that sentient beings are subject to 84,000 mental afflictions; to remedy them, he gave 84,000 profound and extensive teachings. The point of all these teachings is to benefit the mind. One's body and speech will automatically derive benefit since the mind is like the master, and the body and speech are like its servants. For example, through thoughts of generosity, we perform acts of generosity; and because of angry thoughts, we use harsh words or act unkindly. The mind is the source of the action while the body and speech enact the mind's intentions. For instance, today you had the thought, "I must go to Kagyu Thubten Chöling to hear the Dharma," and in response to that thought, your body and speech somehow managed to accomplish this.

If one practices the Dharma correctly, then the four types of obscurations that veil the nature of the mind—ignorance, habitual patterns based on dualistic perception, mental afflictions, and karma—are removed. Complete elimination of these obscurations—known in Tibetan as sang—causes the inherent qualities of the mind's nature to manifest fully and spontaneously. This manifestation of the qualities and wisdom of the mind is called gye in Tibetan. Together these two form the word sang gye, which means Buddha or Buddhahood, the ultimate attainment.

It is necessary to practice Dharma because we are subject to impermanence. Born from our mother's womb, we go through childhood, mature, grow old, get sick, and eventually die. None of us can avoid birth, old age, sickness, and death. We have no control over this. That is why we need to practice the Dharma.

Since no one lives forever, we have an underlying awareness that we are going to die. But we have only the idea "I'm going to die." We don't remember the suffering, fear and difficulty we experience at the time of death. We don't really understand the nature of death because we don't understand the meaning of Dharma.

If our whole existence just disappeared at death like a flame that has been extinguished, or like water that evaporates, then everything would be fine. But the mind's nature is empty, clear, and unimpeded. Because it is empty it does not die. Our mind does not disappear, but goes on after our physical death to experience the confused appearances of the interval between death and the next rebirth (Tib. bardo). We then take rebirth in one of the six states of existence. This cycle repeats again and again. Since the nature of cyclic existence is impermanence, it is a source of only suffering and not happiness.

Everyone is concerned about having a long life and freedom from sickness. It is good to have these things, but people neglect to provide themselves with good circumstances for future lifetimes. We should recognize that the mind that experiences future lifetimes is the same mind we have now, so we should therefore be concerned with providing for the future experiences of that mind.

How can we ensure happiness in future lifetimes? By practicing virtue with body, speech, and mind. When engendering Bodhicitta we pray, "May all sentient beings have happiness and the causes of happiness; may they be free of suffering and the causes of suffering." The cause of happiness is virtue and the cause of suffering is nonvirtue. It is therefore necessary to practice virtue and avoid unvirtuous actions to the best of our ability. Since we have the ability to choose between virtuous and unvirtuous actions, our future happiness or suffering is in our own hands.

There are two practices that I find extremely important and beneficial. The first is the vow of refuge, which by instilling faith in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha forms a foundation for attaining Buddhahood. The second is the meditation on the Bodhisattva Chenrezi. This practice is the essence of all the teachings of tantra, and Chenrezi the essence of all yidam deities.

Many people in the West are interested in the teachings on Bodhicitta and benefiting others. This is very nice, but the root of cultivating Bodhicitta is being able to take all suffering, loss, and defeat for oneself and to give all happiness, profit, and victory to others. If one does not practice this within one's own family, then talking about applying this ideal to all sentient beings is merely words.

Reflecting on the kindness of our parents is how one begins to practice mind-training (Tib. lojong). We realize that they are suffering now and will continue to suffer in the future, and that until they attain liberation from samsara, they will go from life to life experiencing pain. If we reflect in this way, we begin to understand that it is unfitting for us to allow beings who have been so kind to us to experience so much suffering. This recognition is the beginning of loving-kindness and compassion. Next we must resolve to do whatever we can to free them from suffering. We expand on this contemplation by including all the people that we care for—our children, friends, and relatives. We then include all those whom we neither like nor dislike, and then people we dislike, even those we consider to be our enemies. Finally, we include all sentient beings, who fill all of space, and we imagine that we take on all their suffering and offer them all our happiness and virtue. In particular, we should make the aspiration that this meditation may serve as a cause for their attainment of Buddhahood and liberation from the sufferings of samsara. That is the way in which Bodhicitta is developed.

If we can practice Bodhicitta, develop patience, and pacify all disharmony in our own home, then we have prepared the way leading to the development of limitless Bodhicitta. If, on the other hand, we cannot maintain patience and harmony in our own home with our own family, then it is very unlikely that we will be able to do this with respect to all sentient beings, who are infinite in number. So if, after hearing these teachings, you go home and eliminate all disharmony in your home and family, I will proclaim you all male and female Bodhisattvas!

[i32I7qyH]

That would have been a wonderful talk to have been present to listen to - thank you for sharing it

We certainly need conviction to maintain our practice - mine comes from the confirmed confidence of the teachings.

[fmrcurter]

Hi Karma Yeshe, when I was quite young I received various offline teachings
and empowerments from the late Kalu Rinpoche (who gave the talk in your quote) not so long before he died.

He took a very traditional/superstitious stance on most aspects of Tibetan Buddhism - for example some things he said about karma and rebirth in other realms a younger tulku told me could be interpreted as mental states, rather than taken literally.

Could you give URL links with your quotes by the way, please. It's not always necessary to copy all of a lengthy talk or article - a section of it and then a link to the rest is fine.

Thank you.

[maonnjtip]

Hi Karma Yeshe, when I was quite young I received various teachings
and empowerments from the late Kalu Rinpoche (who gave the talk in your quote) not so long before he died. He took a very traditional/superstitious stance on most aspects of Tibetan Buddhism - for example some things he said about karma and rebirth in other realms a younger tulku told me could be interpreted as mental states, rather than taken literally.

Hi Aloka-D, my understanding is the same, that it can be understood in this life as mental states.

[Rqvtwlfk]

Your post cleared up some confusions I have about the rebirth issue, Karma Yeshe. Thanks

[Qnnoshxj]

If one has no confidence in the existence of past or future lives or in the truth of the effects of karma, then one will have no appreciation of Buddhism or any other religion. The practices of all religions are based on the intention to benefit oneself and others in a future existence.

This is just an opinion Kalu Rinpoche had, and is certainly not true about some teachers and students 25 years later, who are dedicated to the Buddha's teachings but prefer not to speculate about past and future lives. I also recall a teacher from the same lineage telling someone who found it difficult to believe in rebirth, that it wasn't neccessary to think about other lives because this life is the important one.

Contrary to some cultural superstitions in general about this matter, since I started reasoning for myself as well as talking offline to different teachers, it has become irrelevant to my personal practice to take a position on rebirth one way or another.

If its comforting and helpful, and useful as a morality teaching to others though, then that's fine for them of course.

Bundokji, I recommend that you read "Anatta and Rebirth" by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu:


http://das-buddhistische-haus.de/pag...nd_Rebirth.pdf

.