[Twendypreency]

From what I have studied... Theravada is the "type" of Buddhism that does not worship those saint like things that Mahayana/Vajrayana Buddhism do... can somebody give me some more information on this... I am a fairly new to Buddhism, and I have just recently made the switch from Christianity. So.... here's what I believe...

I believe that Buddha was a person, not a God, but he taught how to reach Nirvana which is ultimate peace and all knowing of the soul.

I follow the eightfold path, as well as the four noble truths

I believe that if you do not achieve Nirvana, you will be reincarnated

I have started studying the Dhammapada, and I try my best to follow Buddhas teachings

I do not believe there is a God, or that people who have reached Nirvana come back as saints and help people or anything

So, what type of Buddhism am I? Or do I not fall into any specific group at all?

[lh88gFzI]

Hi, BatteredRose. There are some who would say that if you believe in reincarnation at all, you're not in agreement with Buddha's teachings on that point, at least, and maybe should study the concept of anatta to understand why and how the Buddha denied reincarnation. The Buddha refuted reincarnation and described rebirth, which is not a transmigration of a being or soul-like identity.

Both Theravada and Mahayana have some who formulate creative ways to wedge in something of an identity that gets reborn, but this is often just a play on words designed to keep the hope of future lives alive. It's reincarnation. Some say that it's clinging to being, which is something that prevents final liberation.

I know you're new to Buddhism, BatteredRose, and this gets pretty complicated. Nevertheless, it's worthwhile to sort it all out. I can't think of anything else in life more worthwhile to spend one's energy on.

[ranndomderr]

But I thought that Buddha taught that if you did not reach Nirvana, you would have to return to a living being and suffer through life again?

[Maryjasmine]

Thank you, btw

[NEWyear]

You're welcome. =)

Hmm. Well, there are different levels of teachings. The Buddha adapted his words to the audience. When talking to the uninstructed, he said things that could be interpreted as what you mention. However, when talking to those who were further along the path, he elucidated more about anatta, which undermines the simplified explanation by showing that the 'you' which is thought to be reincarnated is a convenient fiction from the get-go. The conventional definition of 'you' doesn't exist in the way that it's conventionally defined, so in that sense, there is no 'you' to be reincarnated. No soul-substance that might transmigrate.

Miln III.5.5: Transmigration and Rebirth {Miln 71}

The king asked: "Venerable Nagasena, is it so that one does not transmigrate[1] and one is reborn?"[2]

"Yes, your majesty, one does not transmigrate and one is reborn."

"How, venerable Nagasena, is it that one does not transmigrate and one is reborn? Give me an analogy."

"Just as, your majesty, if someone kindled one lamp from another, is it indeed so, your majesty, that the lamp would transmigrate from the other lamp?"

"Certainly not, venerable sir."

"Indeed just so, your majesty, one does not transmigrate and one is reborn."

"Give me another analogy."

"Do you remember, your majesty, when you were a boy learning some verse from a teacher?"

"Yes, venerable sir."

"Your majesty, did this verse transmigrate from the teacher?"

"Certainly not, venerable sir."

"Indeed just so, your majesty, one does not transmigrate and one is reborn."

"You are clever, venerable Nagasena." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...n.3x.kell.html

[bypeTeenehalT]

Hello BetteredRose,

Be welcome to BWB and thanks for shearing your thoughts.

Indeed as FBM has commented, the Buddha did not teach rebirth and reincarnation.

I think that those are just speculative believes rooted in some sort of existential pain, existential stress, naive hopes for a better life.

Rebirth and Reincarnation are the core aspects of Mahayana religions and Reincarnation is a central aspect for the Tibetan culture.

Also some schools of the Theravada tradition, being the closest tradition to what the Buddha taught, believe in rebirth; but again, rebirth/reincarnation are speculative entanglements of mind, which can result just useful to make people to behave in a wholesome way and keep ethical conduct, but it is not what the Buddha aim us to practice.

The Buddha just taught the way that leads to the cessation of suffering, as he, himself stated:

So, what type of Buddhism am I? Or do I not fall into any specific group at all?

Seems you are closer to the Theravada tradition. So, give a chance to the Thai Forest Tradition and feel how well this school fits with your personal needs.

But if you feel at peace with Rebirth/Reincarnation, then, Tibetan religion -and Mahayana in general- can be a good approach.

[trorseIrripsy]

Ah, Kaarine...the Buddha did teach rebirth, but not reincarnation. They're pretty much opposite concepts... =)

[esanamaserrn]

Ah, Kaarine...the Buddha did teach rebirth, but not reincarnation. They're pretty much opposite concepts... =)

When it is rebirth as the constant birth of the idea of self in this lifetime, well yes. Buddha taught the endless rebirth of the idea of a Self.

But if it is the rebirth of "something" that goes beyond this present life, I think we are getting into speculation.

Because, what is what experiences rebirth, so to say that such happens form one life to another.

Rebirth into a next existence without consequences of past actions make no sense.

Honestly, FBM, it is a difficult concept to understand for me when rebirth is understood as a happening form this life to another.

For example, Reincarnation, assumes that the experience of self will transcend this life into another with all the consequences of past actions; this, is much more better because it keeps people under an ethical frame so to behave in a wholesome way.

As the rebirth of "what?" leads to much more speculative entanglements and throws away moral fear in people that needs it so to have a wholesome conduct and the practice of loving kindness.

But I am really not sure of all this... I try to be focused in what can be achieved in this moment.

Anyway, I am not closed to the understanding of this if someone helps me to deal with it.

[juyrett]

It is a difficult concept for anyone, Kaarine, me included. As far as I can tell, there is no 'one' who experiences rebirth, the continuation of being in a next life. If you read the Milinda Panha Sutta that I quoted above, you get the idea a little closer, I hope. In particular, the way that 'something' is continued when a teacher teaches a poem to a student and the student retains it. It's not reincarnation. No 'thing' like a soul or being passes on, but it's not nothing, either. It's just a series of causes and effects. Not a person. Just like the first flame doesn't itself continue into the second flame, but it's a necessary condition for the second flame. The chain of conditioned phenomena continues uninterrupted, but no 'thing' or being is being passed on. That's my best understanding at the moment, anyway.

[Uhmavano]

But I thought that Buddha taught that if you did not reach Nirvana, you would have to return to a living being and suffer through life again?

BatteredRose, maybe the possibility is there. It is just a maybe, because we don't really know for sure.

Anyway if you feel at peace with it, it is OK to practice the teachings of Buddha within that frame of believe.

The important thing is to practice the teachings of Buddha as you have been doing and to get benefit of them in this present moment.

Practice ethical conduct, mindfulness and contemplation and leave the rest to work by itself.

[Mjypksun]

It is a difficult concept for anyone, Kaarine, me included.

When this idea gets into the mind... I experience a lot of stress. It is maybe a kind of shortcomming I have ever had to deal with it

If you read the Milinda Panha Sutta that I quoted above, you get the idea a little closer, I hope. Yes, I have read it. Need some time to elaborate my thoughts correctly so to give an opinion later. Household duties...

Thanks FBM.

[allemnendup]

Any kind of afterlife is just speculation.

[FsQGF1Mp]

I suppose it kind of makes sense then... I may never understand... but as long as we all do what is best, and only good can come of it... right?

[Solo3uc4]

When this idea gets into the mind... I experience a lot of stress. It is maybe a kind of shortcomming I have ever had to deal with it

Oops. Sorry to cause you stress, Kaarine!

I suppose it kind of makes sense then... I may never understand... but as long as we all do what is best, and only good can come of it... right?

Right intention is crucial, so yes, we should all do what we think is best. There's never a guarantee that everything is going to turn out peaches and cream all the time, but if your kamma (intent) is right, you're not to blame.

[SergeyLisin]

Oops. Sorry to cause you stress, Kaarine!

Oh No problem FBM!

What I mean is that in my personal experience, to work with that ideas, do not lead to stillness of mind, to focus in the here and now. Being into such speculations throws the mind far from the here and now. Wanders, speculates, entangles in itself. Meditation needs the mental silence of the letting go of all such wanderings, even for those that are agreeable, attractive and seductive.

On the other hand, I feel that I have some shortcomings due to the difficulty I experience to imagine in abstract terms. That is maybe the origin of some of the mental stress I have had experienced with such abstractions.

But anyway FBM... Do you think that can be a good idea to open a new thread so to comment the Milinda Panha Sutta you have quoted, so to keep this one for BatteredRose?

[Skete]

OK, Kaarine, I'll start a thread on that sutta in a few minutes. =)

[GuitarLoverBe]

Just sharing . I am of the opinion , Buddhism is never connected to any tradition , culture , lifestyles , believe or any practices . There are " no" type of Buddhism as I currently of the opinion , Buddhism is a search , a learning process to know & understand "ownself" to be free of it by being awake .

Is "own" search based on the understanding from the very basic of Mr Siddharta introduction of understanding of emptiness .

Thks
CSEe

[JulietOreira]

Hi, BatteredRose. There are some who would say that if you believe in reincarnation at all, you're not in agreement with Buddha's teachings on that point, at least, and maybe should study the concept of anatta to understand why and how the Buddha denied reincarnation. The Buddha refuted reincarnation and described rebirth, which is not a transmigration of a being or soul-like identity.

Both Theravada and Mahayana have some who formulate creative ways to wedge in something of an identity that gets reborn, but this is often just a play on words designed to keep the hope of future lives alive. It's reincarnation. Some say that it's clinging to being, which is something that prevents final liberation.

I know you're new to Buddhism, BatteredRose, and this gets pretty complicated. Nevertheless, it's worthwhile to sort it all out. I can't think of anything else in life more worthwhile to spend one's energy on.

Hi and welcome from me too BatteredRose,

Some thoughts I can add to FBM's comments above. "Sorting it out" in my experience is a process and one which involves more than thinking and reasoning. Only online have I seen a preoccupation with rebirth and reincarnation and such polarised views on what each tradition believes etc. If at all possible get along to meet some practitioners and visit different groups.

[Markdogas]

I believe that if you do not achieve Nirvana, you will be reincarnated

I do not believe there is a God, or that people who have reached Nirvana come back as saints and help people or anything

welcome Rose

you sound like a Theravada (Mahavihara) Buddhist to me

most Theravada Buddhists believe if you do not achieve Nirvana, you will be reborn or reincarnated

for example, if you search You Tube for 'Ajahn Brahm Reincarnation', you will find talks by this monk about reincarnation (although most Theravada Buddhists use the word 'rebirth' rather than 'reincarnation')

however, about Nirvana, it is the end of greed, hatred & delusion in the human mind

so those who attain Nirvana, like the Buddha did when he was 35 years old, are 'saints' and generally spend the rest of their lives helping people

in Buddhism, the word for a 'saint' is 'arahant'

an arahant is being with a mind completely free of greed, hatred & delusion and perfect in wisdom & compassion

warm regards

Element