[CenICrerflind]

So I was sitting meditating this morning, and came aware of a hard "lump" of dead/bad feeling in my solar plexus. Thoughts came to mind of people who had taken away my personal power, and I kept practicing the letting go. Many things came up....realizations of how they acted out of ignorance, anger at how they had "set the stage" for my doormat-status while I was still young, I cried some, and kept practicing the letting go with each new thing as it came. In the middle of letting go of the people and thoughts, the thought of how I eat meat came up. "I've taken away these animals' power by supporting the ones who keep them in inhumane conditions all their life. Then in the end they are killed!"

I had a brief flash of the thought "never again" - then doubted whether I could keep that resolve for even a few days. I felt waves of shame at my ignorance, because it felt like my meat-eating does come from ignorance - like I don't understand, on a deep enough level, the necessity of caring for the animals like I care for myself. This all happened very fast.

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Well I just wanted to share....I would appreciate any comment/thought from folks who are vegetarian, or folks who are considering/wrestling with it like this also. I'd like to keep this thread out of the GENERAL debate as to whether ALL people should/shouldn't become vegetarians though....just looking for feedback on my experience.

(I've cut my meat consumption by a third or a half in the past 6-9 months but not gone the whole way.)

Thanks again you all.

[herrdwq]

Hello Seeuzin,

It's good to see you posting again!

Regarding vegetarianism, I'm a vegetarian myself, but there are no rules which say that one has to be vegetarian in order to be a Buddhist.

I'm not sure which meditation method you're using, but you seem to be following after your thoughts -which often happens - so when you notice that your mind has wandered away, just gently return your attention to the meditation object again.


Have you tried the Buddhist meditation series with Ajahn Jayasaro on YouTube ?

Here's the first one which is the introduction:




with kind wishes,

Aloka-D

[12Dvop4I]

Hi Seeuzin
I've also had some bad feelings during meditation, I took Aloka's advice about not dwelling on feelings that arise during meditation and these feelings subsided. I think if you dwell on these feelings they become a habit and you start to expect them to come up. I hope this helps.
Best wishes
Gary

[lkastonidwedsrer]

So I was sitting meditating this morning, and came aware of a hard "lump" of dead/bad feeling in my solar plexus. Thoughts came to mind of people who had taken away my personal power, and I kept practicing the letting go. Many things came up....realizations of how they acted out of ignorance, anger at how they had "set the stage" for my doormat-status while I was still young, I cried some, and kept practicing the letting go with each new thing as it came.

hi Seeuzin

this sounds very good; it is purification; as long you see clearly they acted out of ignorance & from a lack of love & compassion

in seeing like this, it should mean your heart is growing in wisdom, love & compassion; it should mean you are learning what is right action towards others

in your growth of love & compassion (towards yourself & others), which comes from meditation, you should be able to see how others did not act with love & compassion

the more you see clearly, from the basis of love & compassion, the more your personal power will be restored & the more the power others had over your mind will be eliminated

In the middle of letting go of the people and thoughts, the thought of how I eat meat came up. "I've taken away these animals' power by supporting the ones who keep them in inhumane conditions all their life. Then in the end they are killed!"

This is the way to cultivate compassion for all beings and develop vegetarianism.

I had a brief flash of the thought "never again" - then doubted whether I could keep that resolve for even a few days. I felt waves of shame at my ignorance, because it felt like my meat-eating does come from ignorance - like I don't understand, on a deep enough level, the necessity of caring for the animals like I care for myself. This all happened very fast.!"

If you wish to pursue vegetarianism out of non-harming, then you must always reflect when eating food, that the non-vegetarian food you are eating is coming from the killing of other life.

I personally am mostly vegetarian although I do eat sardine fish (and eat six eggs a week but eggs are not killing).

However, I will not say all non-vegetarianism is ignorance because often beings have no choice to sustain themselves on other beings.

Kind regards

Element

[DYjLN8rF]

Thoughts came to mind of people who had taken away my personal power, and I kept practicing the letting go. Many things came up....realizations of how they acted out of ignorance, anger at how they had "set the stage" for my doormat-status while I was still young, I cried some, and kept practicing the letting go with each new thing as it came.

Hi Seeuzin,
A clear demonstration of the pain inherent in "self" and "other". We take 'refuge' in self and the life-story it carries around with it. When we learn to let that go, there can be space and understanding.

I had a brief flash of the thought "never again" I became vegetarian over twenty years ago following a profound experience in meditation and I had no inclination to relinquish meat whatsoever prior to that. I don't think it's necessary to be a vegetarian as a Buddhist, it's just that I personally can't eat the cadaver of a dead sentient being any more.

And yes, I know trillions of insects are killed in order to make my tofu etc.

[Zwnkkvle]

Depending on the type of Buddhism that you practice this may or may not be of help but did help put this topic in prespective for me.

Gyalwang Karmapa’s Advice on Vegetarianism

December 24, 2007, Translated by Ringu Tulku Rinpoche & Karma Choephel

"Now we are finishing the 25th Kagyu Monlam in a very auspicious way, and there is not a whole lot for a fool like me to say. A great crowd of monks and nuns from the different Kagyu monasteries have come here. Similarly, there are many people who have come here from Ü, Tsang, and Kham in Tibet. A great number of people from foreign countries, both East and West, have also come. For all of you to come here is, as I have already said, a wonderful great fortune for all of us, for myself and for you, and I am very happy about this.

Last year on the final day of the Kagyu Monlam, I said a few things on the subject of giving up eating meat. Almost all of you probably already know this. It seems some people did not completely understand what I said. For example, some foreign students seemed to think it meant that once you become a student of the Kagyu, meat is not allowed to pass your lips. They told all the meat-eating Kagyupas, “You can’t be a Kagyupa if you eat meat.” I did not say anything that inflammatory. If a Mahayana practitioner, who considers all sentient beings to be like their father or mother, eats the flesh of another being out of carelessness and without any compassion, that is not good. So we need to think about this and pay attention to it. All of us Mahayana practitioners, who accept that all sentient beings have been our mothers and fathers, need to think about this. For that reason, it would be good to decrease the amount of meat that we eat. That is what I said.

I certainly did not say that you are not allowed to eat meat at all. That would be difficult. Whether it is because of previous karma or their present circumstances, some people cannot do without meat. This is how it is, and there’s nothing to do about it. It’s not a problem.

If you have to eat meat, there is a proper way to eat it. Do not just grab it and stuff it into your mouth as soon as it is put on your plate. If first you think carefully about it, meditate on compassion, and recite the names of buddhas or mantras before eating, then it has some positive effects.

When I was explaining this last year, I said that one reason to give up eating meat was for the long life of the lamas. His Holiness the Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso, passed through his “obstacle year” according to Tibetan astrology, so it was for his long life. Next year will be his post–obstacle year. I also brought up my own name. On one hand, it may have been out of desperation that I said, “If you do this for my own long life, that would be good.” Some people have asked how it is that their giving up eating meat could bring me a longer life. It’s difficult to give a direct answer to that question.

But if we don’t eat meat, even if we don’t live longer, I think we will live happier lives. If we enjoy the flesh and blood of other beings, then at the time we have to go, we might feel as if this life didn’t turn out so well. We will have carelessly consumed the flesh and blood of other beings. That might happen, right? If we don’t eat meat, life might not be longer, but there is a possibility we might be more satisfied.

Many monasteries in India and Nepal have done such great, positive things as giving up meat and cooking vegetarian food instead. This is a good example for Buddhism in general, and I think it especially becomes Mahayana practice.

In our eyes, such high lamas as Jamgon Rinpoche and Gyaltsap Rinpoche are the living presence of Manjushri and Vajrapani. Out of care for sentient beings, they intend to refrain from eating meat and to become vegetarian. I think that for them to have such an intention is actually a great fortune for all of us sentient beings; it is good fortune for all of their followers.

Some of the other high lamas who are here, Thrangu Rinpoche and Tenga Rinpoche, were present during the time of the previous Karmapa, and they are like the pillars of the teachings. Throughout their lives they have developed strong habits of eating meat. However, out of their concern for beings and the Buddhist teachings, they have taken great steps in this direction. For that reason, all of us who call ourselves their followers need to think about this.

Everyone is really trying their best. For example, in Tibet, in the old days there was no way to live without eating butter, cheese, and meat. Now maybe because of better environmental conditions, or because Tibetans have such strong faith, or because they are stubborn, the monasteries even in many remote places have promised to give up meat. When we think about it, there are many people here in India who generally do not like eating meat. So when those of you who live here give up meat, it is not really anything novel. For people in Tibet, however, to give up meat is a big deal. I would like to say thank you to all of them. We need to keep doing everything we can.

We should contemplate the Mahayana teachings and the precious teachings of the Kagyus. The earlier Kagyu masters gave up meat, took up a vegetarian diet, and developed pure love for sentient beings. If we ourselves can take up even the smallest aspect of this sort of action and start with something small, it will turn out extremely well, I think. So that is what I have to say about giving up meat."

[GZFL2tDA]

Meat is not necessary for a healthy diet. We, as species, do not evolve as carnivores. So our biology, our tooth anatomy, our body, our metabolism do not evolve over the need of meet. We evolved eating seeds, fruits, veggies as the basic diet. Meat in diet came as a cultural feature very recently in terms of evolutionary time span.

Also many great civilizations in their cosmology has set the origin of humankind as evolving from corn, for example. The basis of this civilization early settlements was corn in America, wheat in Europe, rice in Asia and sorghum in Africa.

Personally, to eat meat, promotes the needless killing of sentient beings, the deforestation of tropical woodlands, the emission of methane that promotes greenhouse effect, the use of seeds for animals -corn and sorghum- needed to feed many countries suffering of famine and overall, it promotes the unnecessary suffering of sentient beings.

[SingleMan]

Hello you all thank you very much for the thoughtful replies.

Aloka-D - I am going to have to check out the Ajahn Jayasaro videos - I got a good energy from listening to the first one.

fletcher - I agree, I was reminding myself to let go as best I could, but I am still very green at this, and at the end things happened so fast that I got swept up as happens often.

Element - thank you for your kind words I agree, it felt purifying. Things I had shoved out of the way were coming to a point where I understood them a little more, and then the strong feeling to not want to visit these harms on other beings felt like it was "on the right track" too.

srivijaya -
A clear demonstration of the pain inherent in "self" and "other". We take 'refuge' in self and the life-story it carries around with it. When we learn to let that go, there can be space and understanding. Yeah grasping, mud-wrestling, wrangling in the mind over experience....I am reading a book by Chogyam Trungpa where he calls this "being a nuisance to oneself." His description makes me laugh and I so identify with it

Karma Yeshe,

Wow I really like that transcription! Thank you....yeah I have been trying to give it up...bit by bit
I did have some fish, but I had very little meat the past few days and was happy about it

Kaarine Alejandra,

Hey when talking about this I tend to stick to the personal, like that meditation session I had a few days ago; though if you think it is okay to broaden it then by all means (my initial reasoning for making that specification in the OP was that the discussion of meat-eating in a more general sense often turns unskillful incredibly quickly.) I agree with a lot of what you say and am trying to find the courage to do the right thing,
I'm finding that if I motivate myself with shame - "I am shameful to eat this!" then I do not get as far as when I appeal to my natural courage, and say, "It takes courage to do the right thing (and I will do it.)" Thanks for your feedback on it, your words remind me of a book I have, the Food Revolution, that I have been meaning to read.

[Illirmpipse]

My meditation method is Vipassana but really I don't see a big difference between the different methods. When thoughts arise I just notice them but without judging them. They are niether good nor bad, they are just thoughts. I don't try to follow them and I don't try to push them away, I just notice them and once I notice them without judging they tend to fade away.
The most valuable meditation lesson I've ever had is to "expect nothing" just sit and meditate without prejudging what the result will be.
I followed Buddhism without meditating at all for long time and the Buddhist ethics did help me a lot but it wasn't until I had been meditating for a while that my mind was able to rest and I became a calm person, not just in meditation but in eveything else too.

[Mediconlinee]

Kaarine Alejandra,

I agree with a lot of what you say and am trying to find the courage to do the right thing,
I'm finding that if I motivate myself with shame - "I am shameful to eat this!" then I do not get as far as when I appeal to my natural courage, and say, "It takes courage to do the right thing (and I will do it.)" Thanks for your feedback on it, your words remind me of a book I have, the Food Revolution, that I have been meaning to read.

Thanks. You are welcome Seeuzin.

I give up meat very early in my life, before knowing about Buddhism. I know that to give up meat can result hard for some people, like giving up drinking coffee or smoking. We tend to think meat is necessary to be eaten because we found it as a normal thing like in the supermarket, advertisements, the restaurant menu and at the nutritionist office. We found it in a clean packaged or just in a big piece sliced by the butcher but we do not see how that animal was slaughter and his stress and suffering in its eyes. So that helps to make meat eating as a common behaviour. That is why this can become a very heated debate.

[77rexulceme]

Vegetarianism is a somewhat complicated subject imo. If you think animals get killed because you eat meat, then it makes sense to stop eating meat. But animals get killed in agriculture too. Does that mean you should stop eating vegetables and start growing your own stuff in your backyard without killing any insects in the process? It gets complicated when you analyze this too much because species are inter-dependent. Sometimes X has to die for Y to live. Reflect on the food cycle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_web. This is just the way things are in nature. It is best to eat moderately and stop obsessing over what you eat.

[eskimosik]

It is best to eat moderately and stop obsessing over what you eat.

Hi Deshy,

True. But I am not obsessed. I am OK with not eating meet. I do not feel any need to eat meat. And also I think this is a be very personal decision. Some of my friends are meat eaters and there is no problem with me.

[obHQNsY2]

Hi Deshy,

True. But I am not obsessed. I am OK with not eating meet. I do not feel any need to eat meat. And also I think this is a be very personal decision. Some of my friends are meat eaters and there is no problem with me.

Ok... My reply was for the OP

[gundorana]

Nice words Deshy, food for thought you might say

[DioraMoostebeers]

This is my first post outside of the introduction thread, and I sincerely hope it's okay. I have been vegetarian and then vegan for many years. If I can help in any way - suggesting some cookbooks or websites, please let me know. I know this isn't a vegetarian site, and don't want to be pushy about this subject.

In my experience, being veg gives me one less thing in my life to worry about. Since I don't eat animal products, I simply don't have to feel bad about eating - except maybe when I eat too many calories!

[mr.memo]

This is my first post outside of the introduction thread, and I sincerely hope it's okay. I have been vegetarian and then vegan for many years. If I can help in any way - suggesting some cookbooks or websites, please let me know. I know this isn't a vegetarian site, and don't want to be pushy about this subject.

Hi Poppy, you are welcome to post vegetarian recipes in the Tea Room. We have this recent thread which you might like to look at :

http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...mp-lentil-soup

.

[Lenkapuppia]

Be welcome to BWB Poppy, and the vegetairan recipes too!