[CiccoineFed]

Hi all.
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that B.W.B. is suggestive of Karma within a finite framework.

I have always had problems with Karma relevant to the claim that it is a perfectly just law.

As for your emphasis on acting decently within a secular world by utilizing Buddhist principles, I can also appreciate the need not to get into areas that Buddha thought contentious (14 questions, I think); a muddeying of the waters.

That said, it seems to me, that for Karma to operate in any deep cosmic sense , some form of long term, post mortem sentient "reasoning" or whatever, hard to find a word for it, would be neccessary.......

[dhYTvlAv]

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that B.W.B. is suggestive of Karma within a finite framework.
Hi Murchovski,

I'm puzzled because the above statement seems to imply that all BWB members have identical views about karma and I don't think this is necessarily the case.

That said, it seems to me, that for Karma to operate in any deep cosmic sense , some form of long term, post mortem sentient "reasoning" or whatever, hard to find a word for it, would be neccessary If you start thinking about post mortem karma then it can only be speculation.

Buddha said in sutta AN 4.77 that the precise working out of the results of kamma was an unconjecturable which could cause madness and vexation.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....077.than.html

This thread might possibly be of interest to you:

http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...uddhadāsa

and also this one:

http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...of-kamma-karma


with kind wishes,

Aloka

[Shemker394]

Hi all.
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that B.W.B. is suggestive of Karma within a finite framework.

Well, there are members here that do not. The problem is that such is grounded in faith, believe, superstition and speculation.

I have always had problems with Karma relevant to the claim that it is a perfectly just law. It is the popular outlook people handle about Karma. This attitude can end in ideas like those where people believe that a baby born with a deformity or with any other kind of disadvantage is because a bad Karma gained through a misbehaviour in -literal- past lives believes. I do not go with such believes.

That said, it seems to me, that for Karma to operate in any deep cosmic sense [...] Murchovsky, is this about the law of physics that can determine in some way the behaviour of the cosmos? or is this about a kind of ruler like the one who do not play dice?

some form of long term, post mortem sentient "reasoning" or whatever, hard to find a word for it, would be neccessary....... Is this idea grounded in the rebirth doctrine?

I really think that the hole issue is highly speculative and, most of the times, I have seen, it works to have some kind of meaningful explanation -relief- of something we really do not know. When mindfulness in the present moment, speculative defilements fade away making possible to awake.

[Gymnfacymoota]

I don't think it is a question of a "Just" vs "unjust" law.

If you drop a hammer in a positive gravity enviroment it will fall to the ground. Karma, in my understanding, is simply another of the laws of the universe and not subject to what we sometimes think of as conceptual moral values. We are at all times the sum total of our Karma in the same way thay any other object is the sum total of all the forces that have acted on it

[kucheravka]

Hi Murchovski,

I'm puzzled because the above statement seems to imply that all BWB members have identical views about karma and I don't think this is necessarily the case.



If you start thinking about post mortem karma then it can only be speculation.

Buddha said in sutta AN 4.77 that the precise working out of the results of kamma was an unconjecturable which could cause madness and vexation.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....077.than.html

This thread might possibly be of interest to you:

http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...uddhadāsa

and also this one:

http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...of-kamma-karma


with kind wishes,

Aloka

Thanks Aloka.
I certainly don't want to go mad or become vexed.

I find that a good lot of books on Buddhism tend to adopt a too serious approach on this and other metaphysical issues.

This floundering about may well prevent adequate attention on the here and the now.

[Flistelib]

Thanks Karma Yeshe.
I think a fallacy of equivocation may exist whereby Karma is used in two different senses; as morals arbiter on one hand, and the source of being on the other.

[Qncvqpgfg]

Yes, curiosity killed the cat.

Too much philosophical speculation can drive one quite mad. I know of a highly regarded philosopher who got involved in a suicide cult; the whole episode ending in a mass tragedy.

I am working on present moment mindfullness.

[TriammaMade]

Reminds me of this passage murchovski...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....063.than.html
"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.'
Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma?
There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas.
This is called the diversity in kamma.

"And what is the result of kamma?
The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you:
that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that.
This is called the result of kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma?
From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this Noble Eightfold Path — Right View, Right Resolve, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration —
is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma.

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The cessation of kamma... The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.'
Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said.

[Attarderb]

Hi Murchovski,

It might be useful to distinguish between karma (action) and vipaka (result). Karma can only be created in the present moment, for obvious reasons. You can't "take action" in the past or the future -- although you can plan an action or regret one.

Vipaka, however, can occur in the past, present and future. The point of contention, as I see it, is whether the karma-vipaka model is consistent with one lifetime, or requires multiple lifetimes in order to remain coherent. The problem, in the first case, is that clearly some karma will not yield its fruit, and likewise beings will experience vipaka without having created the karma.

As I understand it, however, karma-vipaka does not refer only to external events, but more importantly to psychological states. That is, certain events may happen to us as a result of some prior action, but the really central question is: how does it affect our mind state? The external events just provide the conditions for certain mind states to flourish.

For example, coming into great wealth can provide an opportunity for someone's greed and paranoia to run rampant, thus speeding entry into hell (whether you take this literally or figuratively). Alternatively it could provide an opportunity to help others, thus creating merit. We could say the same for practically any other external event. It seems to me that when we look at karma in psychological terms rather than as an explanation for objective events, the rebirth issue becomes less significant.

People sometimes misconstrue karma-vipaka as being a simple, linear, deterministic process, but the Buddha taught otherwise. You might find this essay by Thanissaro Bhikkhu worth a read:

For the early Buddhists, karma was non-linear and complex. Other Indian schools believed that karma operated in a simple straight line, with actions from the past influencing the present, and present actions influencing the future. As a result, they saw little room for free will. Buddhists, however, saw that karma acts in multiple feedback loops, with the present moment being shaped both by past and by present actions; present actions shape not only the future but also the present. Furthermore, present actions need not be determined by past actions. In other words, there is free will, although its range is somewhat dictated by the past. The nature of this freedom is symbolized in an image used by the early Buddhists: flowing water. Sometimes the flow from the past is so strong that little can be done except to stand fast, but there are also times when the flow is gentle enough to be diverted in almost any direction.

So, instead of promoting resigned powerlessness, the early Buddhist notion of karma focused on the liberating potential of what the mind is doing with every moment. Who you are — what you come from — is not anywhere near as important as the mind's motives for what it is doing right now. As for whether karma-vipaka can be a relevant teaching in a modern, secular age...well, opinions differ. It sees to me there are ways to interpret and apply it without getting caught up in arguments over "literal" heavens and hells, post-mortem rebirth, and so on. Past life karma could be seen more generally as the causes and conditions which came together to produce the present-life "you.". Future life vipaka could be seen generally as the effects of your actions in the present moment.

Maybe this is not a strictly orthodox way of looking at it, but it does have the advantage of avoiding speculative entanglements, and it strikes me as consistent with the Mahayana understanding of sunyata. Certain contemporary teachers tend to approach the subject this way.

[GooogleGuy]

Hi Kaarine Alejandea.
I missed your most salient point. Maybe "god" does play dice (Deism) and buddhists may be frugal gamblers.

Einstein had huge problems with quantam mechanics too!

A good bit of philosophy is to be found in the country and western song....The Gambler.

[reaciciomarep]

feeling and perception are kamma vipaka (results of cause)
volitional activities are kamma (cause for results)

what we can do (or must do) is not to be deluded by feeling and perception, so we do not go for volitional activities

how can we do this; by practising Noble Eightfold Path

[UltraSearchs]

Hi Kaarine Alejandea.

Hi Murchovski... thanks for commenting. I felt it a little rude but hope I haven't hurt feelings. I am working hard with that bad habit

I missed your most salient point. Maybe "god" does play dice (Deism) and Buddhists may be frugal gamblers. Well, there is some room for gambling when evolution is brought into scene. Live likes to gamble. We can not close our eyes to that fact.

Murchovsky... why don't you join Buddhists...? We are not dangerous... Seems you have some distance from Buddhism.

Einstein had huge problems with quantum mechanics too! I have been a fan of physics from long time ago... the person of Einstein has never been one of my choices. He didn't liked quantum physics because of his religious believes. I think that his theoretical rival, Niles Bohr, had a much more coherent idea of what was happening in that time about physics, cosmos and nature maybe, because he didn't have such attachments to the need of a perfect God so to bring meaning in his life.

Niel's theoretical school has produced outstanding advances for the understanding of matter and the cosmos while the theoretical school of Einstein -continued by Stephen Hawkins- ended in fantasies about time machines and other speculations of the like that have brought them, IMO, to nowhere.

A good bit of philosophy is to be found in the country and western song....The Gambler. Is it the song sung by Kenny Rogers?

[bitymnmictada]

Hi Kaarine Alexajandra.

Point (1) I feel more comfortable with Buddhism than the many other isms I have been involved with; I like to keep my options open.

(2) Yes, Kenny Rogers; it may be a personal thing with me ,but I find some of the words very meaningfull.

[apodildNoli]

Hi Kaarine Alexajandra.

Point (1) I feel more comfortable with Buddhism than the many other isms I have been involved with; I like to keep my options open.

I think true Buddhism can teache us to keep options open.

(2) Yes, Kenny Rogers; it may be a personal thing with me ,but I find some of the words very meaningfull. That's nice Muchovski,

[chuecalovers]

Hi Upekka.
Ah beautiful Melbourne; 28 tomorrow.

I like to do my meditations outdoors among the birds as Spring manifests itself in my garden

[peemovvie]

Wow the I/N is quick; to think I used to be a luddite.