[chuecalovers]

I really just wanted to get this off my chest, I'm really struggling with the linguistic structure of the Pali Canon, not the ideas themselves, I can quite easily - at least intellectually have some understanding of them,iIts just I find the linguistic structure - namely the repetitions hard going. I had the idea that they were stuctured this way in order to help them be remembered when they were transmitted orally, but still I'm finding it tough.

[Khcyhshq]

Hello Traveller,

You are not alone with that issue. Many people has told me that same thing when talking about the Nikayas. My experience has been quite different and maybe can be of some help to see the repetitions under another scope. Sometimes the suttas have a similar structure of that of a Fugue or a buckle or an iteration. In each of them there is a basic formula a kind of core idea or fundamental concept.

Some suttas or sections of them do not have repetitions and are about similes. I have really hard time dealing with them but when it comes to the repetition section, where the idea seems to be clearly expounded, the effect of such repetitions is to focus, to still the chattering mind, to be concentrated and reflective about them. Just to be with the teaching, letting it to settle, working in silence, doing its proper work; a kind of contemplation with insight. A given sutta can take us some amount of time so to settle down in our mind and when some event happens in our daily life... there is an aha! moment that makes us remember the core concept given in each repetition.

Some translations, mainly form "access to insight" cut off the repetitions and in my experience, this do not help me to address the sutta properly.

But anyway, I also think that this is something more about our temper.

[agiopwer]

Traveller, it was drudgery for me at first, but after a while I was able to easily spot the repetitious parts that contain, for example, just one changed word from the previous passages. Instead of reading every word of every repetition, I just skim quickly for the changed word(s). Once you learn groupings of things, such as the khandas, you can even predict the content of large sections of suttas without having to plow through every word.

[qikolax]

Its an Asian trait and a cultural thing. In Nepal and India normal talks and even letters have the same structure than what I detected about the Pali Canon. Repeating a sentence is very common in local languages and dialects...often up to three times. This makes it also difficult for students who learn to write English letters. Teachers have their hands full to explain, that their thoughts translated into English is making their letters funny and difficult to read.

A talk example from ordinary daily life here:

(Directly translation from Nepali) "I received a letter from our chairman this morning. This is what the letter says and that is why I read it out to you now.Our chairman proposes that we postpone this meeting...therefore I give to you all the message that the chairman said that he proposes to postpone this meeting. So this meeting is postponed. Thank you kindly for listening!"
(imagine a western journalist who speaks our language has to attend Nepalese Community meeting to write an article about the issue. It takes hours till he knows the result and the decisions )

Overseers are a bit blunter when they instruct their laborers at the start of the working day. They say for example: "Today our aim is to finish the walls.So herewith you know...today we will finish the walls".

If a person with authority would say:"Today our aim is to finish the walls! and then would say: "O.K. lets do it!" the workers would automatically assume that there is time enough to loiter and the work would not be finish in the evening...simply because he did not repeat it to make it clear that it has to be completed today.

If I compare this now with the technique of the Pali Canon then it tells me that the teacher want the students see that there is no time to waste ...not starting to do this an other day or a month later but once said, the practice starts right away.

[Unamannuato]

Wow, hajurba. That's fascinating insight! Thanks for that! There is a tradition here in Korea that one should offer something three times to a guest. For example, a snack or drink. If you offer fewer than three times, you're being rude. Also, the guest is expected to politely refuse at least once before accepting. This applies to fairly formal, polite situations mostly, though. Not among friends or in everyday casual interactions.

Now I'm wondering if this custom has anything to do with the repetition in the sutras. Several other aspects of Korean culture have their origins in Buddhist practices.

[Optosypoeds]

for sure...the suttas are tough at the start

becoming familiar with the 'structure' and phraseology can be like learning another language

[DownloadADOBEsoftware]

There is a tradition here in Korea that one should offer something three times to a guest. For example, a snack or drink. If you offer fewer than three times, you're being rude. Also, the guest is expected to politely refuse at least once before accepting. This applies to fairly formal, polite situations mostly, though. Not among friends or in everyday casual interactions.

Exactly the same here FBM

@ Element becoming familiar with the 'structure' and phraseology can be like learning another language Yes indeed and all cultures around the world of all creeds and believes have linguistics links to their religion and use phrases from their holy books or ancestral teachers etc. Alphabets, language pronunciation, the first books and printed words etc. did not come from the Royals or the servants. Around the world those who made the first dictionaries were monks and monasteries.

[otheloComRole]

I have to agree with FBM, Hajurba, thanks for that fascinating insight into your culture.

[VXHLrsO1]

Sometimes I think I should give all this up and leave it to you spiritual "heavy weights", giving up street drugs was far easier than being a Buddhist! .

[PapsEdisa]

the basis of faith in Buddhism is the Buddha was fully enlightened & spoke the Dhamma perfectly (svakhato bhagavata dhammo)

so reading suttas should be like reading in plain English

but it often is not due to translation

warm regards

[aabbaDE]

Well the ideas make a lot of sense to me Element - at least intellectually if not intuitively.

[Alexeryy]

Sometimes I think I should give all this up and leave it to you spiritual "heavy weights", giving up street drugs was far easier than being a Buddhist! .

Traveler, try with easy suttas. Do not go further and enjoy them. Be in them. I like the Simsapa Leaves Sutta as a very plain starting point, and try to go into the deep meaning of it, as a practice; as an experience with it.

[timgreyuvcz]

Traveler, try with easy suttas. Do not go further and enjoy them. Be in them. I like the Simsapa Leaves Sutta as a very plain starting point, and try to go into the deep meaning of it, as a practice; as an experience with it.

Don't be concerned Kaarine, it was just doubt creeping up again, I just need some support with this, the internet is no substitute for a real teacher, I can't afford the train ride to the Vihara at the moment.

[Feloascarlelt]

I found a site where one can listen to some sutta readings by different people, including Ajahn Succitto who is abbot of Cittaviveka, Chithurst Buddhist Monastery UK :

http://www.suttareadings.net/


There's also a place at Access to Insight called ''Befriending the Suttas'' with a section "How should I read a Sutta?"


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a...friending.html

[Toscoropreark]

spiritual "heavy weights"

Some people are able to retain a lot of information and to present it at the right time but a teacher once cautioned that 'many an ordinary corpse is found in the bed of a scholar'.

[XU8i6ysK]

Some people are able to retain a lot of information and to present it at the right time but a teacher once cautioned that 'many an ordinary corpse is found in the bed of a scholar'.

Quote Originally Posted by Traveller View Post
spiritual "heavy weights"





One thing for sure...lucky hajurba does not belong in such a category...he is an ordinary corpse

[Uninkipsyncp]

http://www.suttareadings.net/

There's also a place at Access to Insight called ''Befriending the Suttas'' with a section "How should I read a Sutta?"


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a...friending.html

Two excellent links...thank you Aloka....you must have an enormous collection of good CONNECTIONS! Be blessed!

[gkruCRi1]

Be blessed!

Lol, thank you Hajurba! The sutta readings are useful, especially if one can follow a text at the same time.