[parurorges]

So is buddhism minus the reincarnation and stuff just as good as Buddhism with reincarnation? Has anyone tried both?

Thanks.

[LomodiorCon]

So is buddhism minus the reincarnation and stuff just as good as Buddhism with reincarnation? Has anyone tried both?

Thanks.

Depends on you. For some traditions the rebirth issue is part of their ethical framework and helps to bring peace to mind. For others, that, is not so important or not important at all.

[mxzjxluwst]

Depends on you. For some traditions the rebirth issue is part of their ethical framework and helps to bring peace to mind. For others, that, is not so important or not important at all.

Alright, so which traditions don't have this thing and which of them do?

I'm looking for a tradition that means i don't have to believe in anything supernatural you know? I really want to start right away so let me know which tradition i should do.

peace out.

[Bonioners]

Buddhism doesn't teach reincarnation; it refutes it. So, a Buddhism without reincarnation would be closer to what the Pali Canon contains.

[Cinzomzm]

given that Tibetan Buddhists (such as the Dalai Lama), who do believe in a form of reincarnation, are perhaps the most "visible" of the many sects of Buddhism. Also, watching recent movies like Little Buddha, Seven Years in Tibet or Kundun, might lead one to believe that Tibetan Buddhism is "representative" of Buddhism in general. However, Shin Buddhists generally treat belief in reincarnation in the same way we treat belief in a god: We don't give it much thought. What's important is not which Buddhists believe in reincarnation and which don't, but that all Buddhists do strive to awaken to one central teaching: The universal truth of the impermanent and interdependent nature of all life. As our awareness of this truth awakens, so does our awareness of compassion.

Quoted from thelivingdharma

[Nmoitmzr]

Hi torrente, mmmmmmm, my suggestion is your questions are abdicating your inherent responsibility to investigate whatever your tradition and practices for yourself? No taecher, or no-one online can do this for you.

[corsar-caribean]

Hi torrente,
My worthless opinions...
So is buddhism minus the reincarnation and stuff just as good as Buddhism with reincarnation? If the below would make any sense to yourself...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....065.than.html
"'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world.' This is the first assurance he acquires.

"'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.' This is the second assurance he acquires.

"'If evil is done through acting, still I have willed no evil for anyone. Having done no evil action, from where will suffering touch me?' This is the third assurance he acquires.

"'But if no evil is done through acting, then I can assume myself pure in both respects.' This is the fourth assurance he acquires.

"One who is a disciple of the Noble Ones — his mind thus free from hostility, free from ill will, undefiled, & pure — acquires these four assurances in the here-&-now." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....060.than.html
"And what is the safe-bet teaching?
"With regard to this, a wise person considers thus:
'If there is no next world, then — at the break-up of the body, after death — this venerable person has made himself safe. But if there is the next world, then this venerable person — on the break-up of the body, after death — will reappear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. Even if we didn't speak of the next world, and there weren't the true statement of those venerable brahmans & contemplatives, this venerable person is still criticized in the here-&-now by the wise as a person of bad habits & wrong view: one who holds to a doctrine of non-existence.
If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a bad throw twice: in that he is criticized by the wise here-&-now, and in that — with the break-up of the body, after death — he will reappear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell.
Thus this safe-bet teaching, when poorly grasped & poorly adopted by him, covers (only) one side, and leaves behind the possibility of the skillful.

"With regard to this, a wise person considers thus:
'If there is the next world, then this venerable person — on the break-up of the body, after death — will reappear in the good destination, the heavenly world. Even if we didn't speak of the next world, and there weren't the true statement of those venerable brahmans & contemplatives, this venerable person is still praised in the here-&-now by the wise as a person of good habits & right view: one who holds to a doctrine of existence.
If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a good throw twice, in that he is praised by the wise here-&-now; and in that — with the break-up of the body, after death — he will reappear in the good destination, the heavenly world.
Thus this safe-bet teaching, when well grasped & adopted by him, covers both sides, and leaves behind the possibility of the unskillful. Read further points A1-3 & B1-3 in the above Sutta for full context

'Stuff' which really matters to a 'Buddhist'?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....031.than.html
"And what have I taught?
'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things?
Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to Self-Awakening, to Unbinding.
This is why I have taught them.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation,
'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...p.14.budd.html
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.

[Lhtfajba]

Unless torrente means rebirth....

[Gastonleruanich]

given that Tibetan Buddhists (such as the Dalai Lama), who do believe in a form of reincarnation, are perhaps the most "visible" of the many sects of Buddhism. Also, watching recent movies like Little Buddha, Seven Years in Tibet or Kundun, might lead one to believe that Tibetan Buddhism is "representative" of Buddhism in general. However, Shin Buddhists generally treat belief in reincarnation in the same way we treat belief in a god: We don't give it much thought. What's important is not which Buddhists believe in reincarnation and which don't, but that all Buddhists do strive to awaken to one central teaching: The universal truth of the impermanent and interdependent nature of all life. As our awareness of this truth awakens, so does our awareness of compassion.

Quoted from thelivingdharma

Actually reincarnation suggests a soul (atman) Buddhism teaches no soul (anatman) - even the Tibetan tradition (which I'm studying formally)

In metta,
Raven

[CHEAPSOFTOEMONLINE]

Torrente, I find it all pretty confusing too. Is it possible to contemplate possibilities without getting too tied down.
As for "supernatural stuff" have you thought that one hundred years ago aeroplanes didn't exist. Maybe in those days some people would have said aeroplane ideas were supernatural.
Actually in the 16th century an old woman Mother Shipton did suggest aeroplanes but not in those words. Keep it simple.

[Poeetiol]

I believe that true enlightment is caining total awer,ness of the soul and control to become into
a Angel like state i call it the jacob ladder factor .

[Zysyewgg]

So is buddhism minus the reincarnation and stuff just as good as Buddhism with reincarnation? Has anyone tried both?

Thanks.

Ha-ha..."tried both" sound also a bit humorist to me...no offense.... No one here has tried both of course, because we are all stuck in our present bodies and lives. And if amongst us any kind rebirth is taking place...we will never know...and the "re-born" will never remember that she or he has ever been here in this forum.
This of course is no statement from my side for rebirth or reincarnation as "true facts" or so. It is pure and plain speculative and theoretic. For what ever we try to seek and find useful for our practice... we are here and now and need to follow the path that lays before us. There is no reward system in Buddhism like a reincarnation into higher realms....that would be an entirely wrong reason to become- or to be a Buddhist.... and to continue practicing Buddhism (of any Buddhist Sect)

[Triiooman]

There is another way to handle this confusion.
You ignore all traditions and ignore that matter of reincarnation.
You study the Buddha's dhamma and pick one or some which you think it is or they are useful to you.
Then, you practice/do the one(s) you pick.

(If anything relates to supernatural matters in your view, you just skip them.
No need/requirment to believe or not believe them now.)

The Buddha's dhamma is so wide and various.
You do not need to involve the supernatural things at all.
Many people may do otherwise because such is matched to their needs, which is also not wrong.
But you can leave them, and should go to the way useful to your need and practice.

[RLRWai4B]

There is another way to handle this confusion.
You ignore all traditions and ignore that matter of reincarnation.
You study the Buddha's dhamma and pick one or some which you think it is or they are useful to you.
Then, you practice/do the one(s) you pick.

(If anything relates to supernatural matters in your view, you just skip them.
No need/requirment to believe or not believe them now.)

The Buddha's dhamma is so wide and various.
You do not need to involve the supernatural things at all.
Many people may do otherwise because such is matched to their needs, which is also not wrong.
But you can leave them, and should go to the way useful to your need and practice.

Excellent post, ngodngam! There's no law saying that you have to believe this or that. Kalama Sutta and all that. If it takes you toward disillusionment and detachment, do it. If it doesn't, don't. Nobody else can tell you what's best for you. Ultimately, we have to experience and judge for ourselves. In the end, the dhamma itself is designed to be obsolete once you're across the river. Clinging to it isn't a good idea.

[egexgfczc]

Personally I've decided to ignore the supernatural stuff, I'd been wondering a lot about and with my history of mental ill health it was messing me up a lot and causing a lot of emotional problems. I've decided to see Buddhism as a system of analysis and rules (e.g. keeping the precepts) to cure the unhealthy mental states we've been conditioned to experience.

Thanks for the eexcellent post Ngodngam, you've saved me a trip to the Psychiatrist!

[77chawzence]

Personally I've decided to ignore the supernatural stuff, I'd been wondering a lot about and with my history of mental ill health it was messing me up a lot and causing a lot of emotional problems.

Sounds like a very wise decision, LT !

[myspacecoo]

Well worrying about it isn't really going to make any difference to my practice, all focusing on it was doing was working me up into a state, I felt so much better since I've decided to take the point of view that its something I can't know at the moment, so why worry.

[neeclindy]

hi Traveller

i have been a Buddhist practitioner for 20 years plus have spent considerable periods working within Buddhism, running meditation courses, etc

for 20 years, Buddhism has been my life and my only source of happiness

the 'supernatural stuff' has never once been part of my practise or view

kind regards

element

[Pvfcadbh]

Thanks Element,

I feel a lot better since I've decided to stop pondering this stuff and just get on with praticing.