[estelle]

Hello,

I'm not very familiar with Buddhism, and feel that too much spiritual guidance could cause me to stray off of my own path, and towards somebody else's. Though I highly value wisdom.

I have been meditating since I was a little kid, although it wasn't until much later that I realized that what I was doing was actually meditating. I've recently come to some realizations, and am seeking input.

I've recently come to the realization that I am not worthy of enlightenment. Simply put, I have not suffered enough to be worthy of enlightenment. This is somewhat nerve-wracking, as I was under the impression for a long time that my suffering was "winding down" and that it was all down hill from here. The thought of more suffering makes my stomach sink, but I know that it is necessary.

So logically I ask myself, how do I experience suffering? Should I seek it, or should I let it find me? I was thinking about a hermitage...but I am worried that it may be the wrong choice. It would mean putting off going back to school even longer...something that would disappoint my family. I would hate to do this and have it be for nothing...but otherwise I'm going to be busy for the next 4 years with school.

So I'm torn. Should I listen to the universe (which could very well be my own madness)? And if so, is going on a hermitage how I should go about experiencing suffering? Or should I dedicate the next four years of my life to my education.

Of course I don't expect answers to these questions, but any advice that you can give would be appreciated.

[LymnInvinny]

Welcome Nathan !

We are all worthy of enlightement if we understand and follow the teachings of the Buddha.

I think perhaps you are misunderstanding the meaning of suffering (dukkha) and there is certainly no need to for you to go looking for it ! "Suffering" means the disappointments, dissatisfaction and difficulties we all have in one way or another at some time in our lives.

As far as your education is concerned, I think its very important that you should continue with it so that eventually you will have the means to be able to get a job to support yourself.

with kind wishes to you,

Aloka-D

[Alliopeti]

Welcome Nathan

I am inclined to say to let suffering find you and to try to finish your education

Most of the well-known (famous) Western Buddhist monks finished their university education

With kind wishes to you,

Element

[Quigoxito]

Thanks for the quick replies

We are all worthy of enlightement if we understand and follow the teachings of the Buddha.

Does Buddha teach that his way is the only way to reach enlightenment?

I think perhaps you are misunderstanding the meaning of suffering (dukkha) and there is certainly no need to for you to go looking for it ! "Suffering" means the disappointments, dissatisfaction and difficulties we all have in one way or another at some time in our lives.

Then perhaps what I am describing as suffering is not what Buddha means by suffering?

As far as your education is concerned, I think its very important that you should continue with it so that eventually you will have the means to be able to get a job to support yourself.

I already support myself. Though an education would certainly increase the cash flow.

Again thanks for the responses.

[DoterForeva]

Then perhaps what I am describing as suffering is not what Buddha means by suffering?

Can you share/clarify the kind of suffering you are describing? Thanks

[shumozar]

Nathan, are you interested in enlightenment or cash flow or both? You must ask yourself what you want out of life and whether you want to be on a spiritual path and what you hope to get from it. Do you have contact with any teacher or Dharma group at all or do you have any friends who meditate? How on earth did you get the idea you need to suffer more in order to progress?

[Sellorect]

Then perhaps what I am describing as suffering is not what Buddha means by suffering?

This is how the Buddha described suffering:



SN 45.165 - Dukkhata Sutta: Suffering


"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering.[1]

What three? Suffering caused by pain,[2]

suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence) [3],

suffering due to change.[4]

It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated..."


Notes

1.Dukkhata, an abstract noun denoting "suffering" in the most general sense.

2.Dukkha-dukkhata, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.

3.Sankhara-dukkhata, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena" (i.e., sankharas, in the most general sense: see BD [Buddhist Dictionary (2nd ed.), by Ven. Nyaa.natiloka, Ven. Nyaa.naponika (ed.), Colombo 1972] s.v. sankhara I, 4). This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling. The suffering inherent in the formations has its roots in the imperfectability of all conditioned existence, and in the fact that there cannot be any final satisfaction within the incessant turning of the Wheel of Life. The neutral feeling associated with this type of suffering is especially the indifference of those who do not understand the fact of suffering and are not moved by it.

4.Viparinama-dukkhata, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change" (VM XIV, 35).


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....165.wlsh.html

.

[nAKMzyBN]

Thank you all for your input. I had an experience that I'm not comfortable sharing, but during which I became aware that I have not suffered enough. Desperate for answers, I posted here. I think I've found where to look for answers though...I thank you all for your time and input.

[daguy]

Welcome to the forum Nathan...

The idea of "Me", "mine" and "I" are enough to have suffering. Not having what you want, it is suffering. Craving and clinging to things, people and ideas are suffering... not being aware of the unsatisfactory nature of all things leads to suffering; grief and despair is suffering.

[ringtonesmannq]

Hi, Nathan. The idea that you have "not suffered enough" is a wrong turn. At the same time, the idea of suffering is simply a vehicle for directing us toward ethical behavior. In the end, that is what all religion is aimed at. If you feel you have not suffered much, fine. Nothing wrong with that. If you feel that not a lot of tragedy of unpleasantness has befallen you, that is okay, too. That is largely a matter of chance.

You can see that there are detrimental effects when greed, anger or hatred, and delusion arise in a person, and I presume that you can see that following the noble eightfold path: right view, intention, speech, action, livelihood, effort, concentration, and mindfulness, can lessen and quench the arising of ignorance, greed, anger. What is left to do is to cultivate that.

Head-tripping about "I have not suffered enough to [deserve...?] an end to any suffering is just that: head-tripping. Perhaps a good course would be to work on the quenching of the arising of such thoughts, such distractions. The Buddha called such things "papanca", mental proliferations.

Suffering according to the Buddha is our reactions to unpleasant experience rather than unpleasant experience itself. Many times, people suffer over the smallest things. No need to go out and suffer.

Pursue your education, by all means. You can never underestimate its value -- and monetary terms are the least of it.

[Clolmemaexata]

Thanks for taking the time to provide your guidance. I've had my share of mental anguish...for instance I was abandoned by my mother at a young age without so much as a goodbye, so she could go and start a family somewhere else. I was suicidal by age 9, and it took me almost a decade and a half to get over it.

But surely this cannot be the extent of suffering. I see many people suffering worse than I. Surely to truly appreciate freedom from suffering, one must be aware of the full extent of it's misery. Not many American's have experienced true suffering (from what I've gathered from my experiences in 3rd world countries).

I'm going to continue with my plans to start back at school (it's been a while). Thanks to all for the advice.

[effenseshoora]

Not many American's have experienced true suffering (from what I've gathered from my experiences in 3rd world countries).

Hi Nathan,

I am just curious about this:

What do you mean by "true" suffering?

Do you mean people in 3rd world countries experience more suffering? Why you think this? What has been your experience in such countries?

[cigattIcTot]

What do you mean by "true" suffering?

Do you mean people in 3rd world countries experience more suffering? Why you think this? What has been your experience in such countries

Depends on the country. In some 3rd world countries, people seem more happy than Americans due to fewer material distractions (though they usually don't see it this way).

But this only holds true assuming that man's basic needs are being met. To suffer is to not have these basic needs met. To never have the feeling of security. To not eat because there is no food. It is very different to not eat by choice than to not eat because there is no food.

Do many Americans experience these things? Are many Americans in a constant struggle for survival? America's poor are among the most obese people in the world.

[scemHeish]

Thanks for taking the time to provide your guidance. I've had my share of mental anguish...for instance I was abandoned by my mother at a young age without so much as a goodbye, so she could go and start a family somewhere else. I was suicidal by age 9, and it took me almost a decade and a half to get over it.

But surely this cannot be the extent of suffering. I see many people suffering worse than I. Surely to truly appreciate freedom from suffering, one must be aware of the full extent of it's misery. Not many American's have experienced true suffering (from what I've gathered from my experiences in 3rd world countries).

Again, there seems to be a confusion between the ideas of "hardship" and of "suffering". There is no end to the sort of hardships that the world has to offer, and seeking to experience the "full extent" of them is really not necessary. Putting an end to "suffering" is simply changing the way we view or react to experience, however it presents. There is no need to choose to place oneself in a position of starving, or to, say, undergo physical torture (which is certainly within the bounds of "the full extent of its misery") in order to appreciate and to be able to work on how we react to experience. The Buddha would probably compare this quest to "explore the full extent of suffering" to the sort of extreme of self-mortification that he declared to be a wrong turn.

Being suicidal (or having been suicidal) is very definitely and unequivocably suffering, and suffering enough to work with.


I'm going to continue with my plans to start back at school (it's been a while). Thanks to all for the advice. Excellent!

[CalBettaulp]

The Buddha would probably compare this quest to "explore the full extent of suffering" to the sort of extreme of self-mortification that he declared to be a wrong turn.

I'm talking about temporarily rejecting modern society and undergoing the struggle of surviving in the wilderness. Could you share some of the quotes in which the Buddha discourages such actions?

One has to keep in mind that things were very different when the Buddha walked the earth...people weren't nearly as spoiled as they are nowadays. Could such spoiling be a hurdle in reaching enlightenment? Of course the soul still suffers, as the only escape from this would seem to be enlightenment.

Seems to me that one would be happier if they were aware of what "true suffering" is like, as one would then have a better understanding of the distinction between what's worth suffering over, and what is simply whining and self-pity.

Surely this distinction must be made before one can overcome suffering (and reach enlightenment)?

[VistaULTIMATEdownloadaPro]

I see many people suffering worse than I.

Hello, Nathan. You don't know that. This matter of comparing yourself with others probably isn't going to help you much. And judging yourself to be unworthy in some respect might be the same type of comparison. Unworthy compared to whom? Who is more worthy than you? If you imagine that some people are more worthy than you, then it's easy also to imagine that you are more worthy than some other people. None of this will help you come out of suffering.

The Buddha taught a path of practice that goes to the very heart of suffering. And here's something to consider: You don't have to go into the wilderness to find it. You don't have to go to a third-world country. You don't have to go anywhere at all. It is right here. It is right now. This is where you go to the heart of suffering, nowhere else. In fact sometimes, people go far away, searching all over, and miss what has been here all along. I would invite you to stay here for a moment, and just see what there is to work with, and see if it isn't part of what you need. In my experience this universe gives us what we need.

Suffering is. Escape is not an option. The Buddha did not teach a path of escapism. The Buddha taught a path of knowing suffering, seeing suffering for what it is, understanding suffering. When we begin to see how our lifelong patterns of greed, hatred and/or delusion lead to suffering, then we can start winding down those patterns, maybe even change them a little.

The struggle you describe is found in this very moment, right here and now, and nowhere else. Be kind to yourself.

[russianstallian]

Hi Nathan,

Why would one need to survive "in the wilderness" in order to understand dukkha ? It's right there with us in our minds, wherever we are, and Buddha taught us how to recognise and overcome this.

In 'Prison of Life' Ajahn Buddhadasa said :


Wherever there is upadana (clinging, attachment) right there is bondage. The bondage may be positive or negative; both are equally binding. By regarding things and clinging to them as "I" or "mine," bondage occurs. When bound to something, we get stuck in it, just like being stuck in prison.

All of the Dhamma principles of Buddhism can be summarized: upadana is the cause of dukkha(dissatisfaction, suffering); dukkha is born out of upadana. We all must understand this matter of upadana well. To make it easy to understand, we must see it clearly as being just like a prison -- a mental prison, a spiritual prison. We come to study Dhamma and develop samadhi (mental stability and calm) and vipassana (insight) in order to destroy upadana.

Or, if we speak metaphorically, we study Dhamma and develop the mind in order to destroy the prison that now traps us.

We're speaking about a mental or spiritual prison, but it has the same meaning as a concrete prison.


http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Bo...on_of_Life.htm
Towards the end of the talk he says:

If you practice anapanasati (mindfulness with breathing in and out) correctly until truly successful in it -- real, not imagined success -- you will destroy all the prisons completely So as well as studying Dhamma, this type of Buddhist meditation is a key factor for our mental wellbeing - and we can practice it wherever we happen to be.


Be well and happy.

with kind wishes to you,

Aloka

[searkibia]

Hello, Nathan. You don't know that. This matter of comparing yourself with others probably isn't going to help you much.

I agree. The experience of Dukkha is a very subjective one. Some situation that for us is not "true" Dukkha, as you say, for others it is and the other way.

[pouslytut]

Thank you all for the advice, I will surely make an effort to fully contemplate these things.

[inmeirulez]

Greetings Nathan. You are already inherently unconditionally happy and stress-free, but only when you are living in the here and now. You experience that when you are doing a favorite activity. Your thoughts/attention is in the current moment. That's the way you were the first few years of your life... playing, exploring all in the current moment (at the time). As soon as you think about the past or future, you open the door to suffering. It happens when you don't let go of thoughts. Live in the here and now and let go of all thoughts and you will always be happy. If you follow the Buddha's teachings, every bit of it is true and will set you free from suffering!