[Retapleapse]

Hi,

I feel confused.

Reading through different postings on this site, some people say categorically that, no, Buddhists don’t believe in a God. However, reading the article: AN 4.77 - Acintita Sutta: Unconjecturable - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....063.than.html it is more or less saying that it is a waste of time and energy worrying and dwelling on things which can’t be proven one way or the other. Its not firmly ruling out the belief in a God.

Then there is what Bhikku Buddhadasa says in his book ‘Keys to Natural Truth’ where he talks about the Law of Nature being the Buddhist God. He also uses both the terms 'God' and 'Religion', but interprets them in a very different way than say a Christian or a Muslim does. The Buddhist God is clearly referred to here in this book as an impersonal God as opposed to a personal God but still responsible for creating the universe (The Laws of Nature), and he talks about the words ‘religion’ and ‘God’ in Dhamma language not in everyday language. So, is it all just down to terminology? Is it because we don’t like to use these words since they have very negative connotations when thinking of them in relation to Christianity or Islam, and this idea of a supreme deity which we must all bow down to and obey?

I have difficulty with these words too for this same reason, but when attaching a different meaning to them, they sit much easier with me. Why does Bhikku Buddadasa use these terms at all in his book? Do Buddhists, just like Christians, have widely differing beliefs on this subject as well, and is this a grey area?

I’m not trying to be argumentative by asking this question, but its something I need to sort out in my head before I can move forward, because its one of the basic beliefs I feel. Help!

[payloansday]

God is not a dirty word. But "God" as conceptualized by many people is not a relevant concept within the Buddhadhamma. Nevertheless, there are people who put Dhamma into practice and still have widely varying beliefs and viewpoints about all kinds of things, including God. The reason for this is that beliefs are not the point.

If you examine your beliefs, you may find that you have less control over them than you think you do. Beliefs are not like a switch that you can turn on and off. They emerge from your entire background and your current perceptions. These factors are mostly beyond your control. The beliefs that present themselves at this moment in your field of experience are not-self phenomena. They are not me, they are not really mine, they are subject to change.

With regard to God, in our western world, many people come to the Dhamma from the perspective of a Christian background that includes a strong God orientation. Many people from this background will begin to hear the Dhamma, and it will resonate with them, and they will be ready to hear more. The God belief does not have to get in the way of this process. Other people at a different place on the path, from a different background, might zero in on the God belief and turn that into a point of contention on discussion boards like this. In doing so, those people might fail to recognize the potential nuances within the framework of any God belief, and those people also risk awakening underlying seeds of dogmatism and division, and squashing the opportunity for people to hear the Dhamma.

That is one reason it can be helpful in some situations to use "God" language when discussing the Dhamma, as Ven. Buddhadasa, Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh, S.N. Goenka and many others sometimes do. It's a delicate matter, however, because some people so strongly identify with their particular "God" beliefs, whether they believe in God or not.

It can be helpful to present the various viewpoints about God so people can sort through them in a detached way. But to say that only this belief or that belief about God is correct within the framework of Dhamma is not so helpful, because nuances of belief and personal experience vary too greatly, and in any case, these beliefs that we hold are not the point. The Dhamma is not about formulating a perfect set of beliefs. The Dhamma is about cultivating the wisdom to see any beliefs for what they are.

[scoussysows]

there are people who put Dhamma into practice and still have widely varying beliefs and viewpoints about all kinds of things, including God. The reason for this is that beliefs are not the point.

Yes, I agree that its not all about beliefs…that wasn’t why I was asking the question really.

Other people at a different place on the path, from a different background, might zero in on the God belief and turn that into a point of contention on discussion boards like this. I have read Thich Nhat Hanh’s ‘Living Buddha, Living Christ’ and feel its how we live our lives that matter, whether that be Christian, Buddhist or whatever. I don’t come from a religious background at all, and have great difficulty believing in God in the Christian sense of the word, and this is why I have always been drawn to Buddhism. I just wondered if Buddhists in general were opposed to the idea of God. I go to a Catholic Church but its more because it’s a spiritual place and it gives me a great sense of peace. I’ve been trying to find a way of blending the two together, and according to Thich Nhat Hanh its ok to do this - taking the best from many traditions to nourish us.

The Dhamma is about cultivating the wisdom to see any beliefs for what they are. I think there is a real danger in anyone, regardless of their belief system, concentrating too much on the ideas and theory behind the practice, when we all should just be trying to live in the moment. That was the real message coming through in 'Living Buddha, Living Christ'.

Thanks very much for your reply Jechbi.

Aasha

[TerAlelmlor]

God and its idea is not relevant for the teachings of the historical Buddha. When something is not relevant, is not relevant, so it can be put aside with any harm. The teachings of the historical Buddha give you such confidence.

I’ve been trying to find a way of blending the two together, and according to Thich Nhat Hanh its ok to do this - taking the best from many traditions to nourish us.

I think you have found that Aasha. Focus on it, explore it and if that is the path, assume it with confidence, loyalty, enthusiasm and love, working it and give yourself a honest discern about dukkha being quenched.

[HugoSimon]

Yes, you're right. I think I'll have to just stop thinking about this whole idea of God and trying to blend the concepts. Thich Nhat Hanh has the right idea of taking the best from both traditions, but it still isn't really sitting well for me. Its just because of where I live that I'm trying to make Christianity fit in with Buddhism so I can go along to church and take part. The truth is it doesn't feel right for me anymore. I can't discuss with anyone at church or the bible study group how I feel or what I truly think because they wouldn't understand and I wouldn't be accepted there.

Maybe I just need to stop going for a while and see how I feel, and in that time concentrate on my meditation and reading some more about the Buddha's teachings. Its about being strong and looking within for support and guidance, rather than looking outward to these groups.

Is the 'Handbook of Mankind' a good place to start with regard to the Buddha's teaching?

Aasha

[grosqueneen]

It's a tough call Aasha. It's not easy being the only one. It seems from your posts that you attend the Church group for spiritual company rather than to bolster a view on God, which it seems you don't have?

If there is some residual belief in a God, then it's worth finding out how you define it for yourself. Every Buddhist will give you a different answer anyway. We're all individuals when it comes down to it and there's no monolithic doctrinal vibe on this question.

[benderkoz]

you attend the Church group for spiritual company rather than to bolster a view on God, which it seems you don't have?

No, I don't, that's the problem. Never really have had, but kept trying to find a belief in God, to provide some meaning in my life and for a feeling of 'family'. My upbringing provided no feeling of family closeness or support whatever, so the search was there since I was a young teenager. Not the right reasons maybe, but there you are!

[Adimos]

Not the right reasons maybe, but there you are!

Perfectly good reason. We could all use nice company that's for sure. Perhaps you could find companionship through other channels, like a hobby for example. Obviously there's no 'spiritual' content but at least you could feel more at ease?

Either that or subvert your Church group and convert some to Buddhism so that they could come to your place for a cuppa and a chat.

[boltondd]

Is the 'Handbook of Mankind' a good place to start with regard to the Buddha's teaching?

IMO, it is an excellent starting point.

Thich Nhat Hanh has the right idea of taking the best from both traditions, but it still isn't really sitting well for me.

You are not alone with this. Maybe Christ and Buddha are Dhamma brothers. That is OK. But I chose Buddha. Fits well with my temper. Now, as a personal opinion, Thich's teachings have the disadvantage that they demand to be with his personal kind of sangha or group of followers. He has developed a very unique way of practice that you will not find everywhere.

About the church or bible study group, do not force yourself to be into a group that will not support the teachings of the historical Buddha or that do not see similarities at all.

The teachings of the historical Buddha are suitable everywhere for everybody in any part of the world. In the country where I live Aasha, Buddhism is not developed; also is underdeveloped. We have very few, if any, traditions or approaches to explore thoroughly. I approach a Soto group with which I learnt Zazen. But I have approached the teachings of the historical Buddha alone and coming to this forum to learn and participate about them. Here are members that have a good understanding of them with which you can learn about.

The day I get in touch with the Pali teachings, it was a very important day in my life. An absolute breakthrough. For my first time, looking at the teachings of the historical Buddha, embracing them, I didn't felt alone. A confirmation of what I have ever intuited. A kind of certainty was born in my heart. A kind of confidence that I never felt when I was entangled with other teachings and other teachers.

Also I think that to go through the Pali teachings, the guidance offered by many of the Thai Forest Tradition teachers is just great. But the very best teacher is the Buddha.

As anything in this business... explore, be focused, go thoroughly and take your decision. There are many traditions out there. Chose the most appropriate one for you. And yes! look within for support and guidance until a sangha "finds you".

[Fsfkkkjz]

Thank you Kaarine….I’ve downloaded ‘The Handbook for Mankind’ and will make a start on it this evening. I like the way its written, just like an ordinary book in layout. To be honest, I don’t really enjoy reading the suttas much - I feel they are so long and repetitive!! Maybe once I’ve got through a few good basic books on Buddhism, outlining the Buddha’s teachings, then I can progress onto reading the suttas. Do you really need to read them, or will reading other books that contain his teachings suffice?

But I have approached the teachings of the historical Buddha alone and coming to this forum to learn and participate about them. Here are members that have a good understanding of them with which you can learn about.

Yes, its a great place to learn and ask questions, and also to get lots of encouragement and guidance.

A kind of certainty was born in my heart. A kind of confidence that I never felt when I was entangled with other teachings and other teachers. Yes, like you, I feel Buddhism just sits right with me, and I’ve always felt that. Although I enjoyed going along to the Buddhist Centre for meditation years ago, and I read a couple of introductory books on Buddhism at the time, I found all the talk about ‘suffering’ really depressing and it put me off exploring it further! I wasn’t ready to face up to reality and accept that you have to think about these unpleasant truths in life in order to overcome the fear of them. I suppose that’s why I was trying to find a belief in a God that would ‘look after you’. Big Daddy in the sky!!!

Also I think that to go through the Pali teachings, the guidance offered by many of the Thai Forest Tradition teachers is just great. But the very best teacher is the Buddha. Yes, I looked up what the 'Thai Forest Tradition' meant and see its teaching close to the historical Buddha and focuses more on the meditation and practice which is good.

I watched 'Life of the Buddha' which was showing on Google earlier today. TheLetterL mentioned it in his/her posting....it was very, very good.

[panholio]

To be honest, I don’t really enjoy reading the suttas much - I feel they are so long and repetitive!!

That's OK. Do not rush yourself into the suttas. It is a great first step to go thoroughly with the Thai Forest Tradition. Most of their achievements come from their confidence and intimate touch whith what the historical Buddha taught. The suttas, I think, are written in that way on purpose: To avoid the amusement of mind entangled and muddled in views. Prevents mind to wander looking for a clever finding of a self. Some suttas are about ethics and others about meditative skills others about wise discernment or Right View.

I have ever felt that suttas are written as Bach wrote Fugues. There is a repetitive element in both so to keep mind out of illusion, views and wandering in useless speculative approaches or clever philosophies.

The cultural context of India at the time of Buddha was one of an outstanding production of views and speculations about God, Universe, Fate and the like. The suttas are a vaccination against this painful wandering. Maybe that is why at a first look they seem so repetitive and barren of any kind of intellectual sophistication what is a the base of a wandering and undisciplined mind. In the same way eye consiousness crave for colors, mind craves for ideas, delight in views, feeds upon on views and the self is kept again.

Reading the oeuvre of the Thai Forest Tradition teachers, will lead you into the suttas sooner or later. Don't worry.

Yes, its a great place to learn and ask questions, and also to get lots of encouragement and guidance. Yes. This forum is a good place. Sometimes debates are passionate but nothing more than that. If you are confident about the teachings of the historical Buddha you will not feel threatened at all. IMHO ( = In My Honest Opinion) it is important to be aware of what taught the historical Buddha, what is taught by a particular tradition and what is being told by a Roshi, Lama, Geshe, Tulku or Priest or an Ancestor. For example, Soto schools are about the Shobogenzo and that is a teaching of Dogen Zengi, not of the historical Buddha and you can find certain connections between, if you wish, but one is Dogen's teaching and the other is the historical Buddha teaching. It is important to be aware of this.

I suppose that’s why I was trying to find a belief in a God that would ‘look after you’. Big Daddy in the sky!!! The doctrine of non self is really challenging. It makes the teachings of the historical Buddha so unique.

I watched 'Life of the Buddha' which was showing on Google earlier today. I will look at it...

[capeAngedlelp]

I feel they are so long and repetitive!!

Hi Aasha,

The Buddha lived between 563 to 483 BCE - and in those days constant repetition was an excellent way for monks to learn and pass on the words of Buddha until they were eventually able to be written down.

[prkddfokic]

constant repetition was an excellent way for monks to learn and pass on the words of Buddha

Yes, I understand now…thanks Aloka-D. It seems very foreign to us nowadays I suppose to read text which is written down in this fashion, but I can see how the constant repetition would aid fixing it in the memory now you come to mention it - never really thought about the reason for it before . I’ll try and read some of them a bit later on. Which ones are best to start off with?
Aasha