[Rqvtwlfk]

Hi all,

Aloka-D gave me the link to a talk by Bhante Vimalaramsi a few days back which I found very interesting. It was about ‘letting go’ of the thoughts that arise when we experience a feeling. He said the more you think about the feeling the bigger the feeling becomes - which is so true. He also said we try to tell ourselves a story about ‘why’ its there instead of just accepting it and recognizing it as just a feeling. He stressed feelings and thoughts are not the same thing.

I woke up this morning feeling a bit depressed, which is quite a common thing for me in the early hours when I first awake for some reason, and instead of trying to push the feeling away or let my mind start attaching reasons as to why that feeling was there - which was my first impulse - I suddenly remembered the talk that I’d listened to.

I’m not sure I completely understand what we are supposed to do in this instance when unpleasant feelings arise. I’m thinking about the 5th Ethical precept about ‘mindfulness’. I read in relation to this that unless we are aware on a moment-to-moment basis of our thoughts and moods, and the feelings and motivations that drive them, we will have very little conscious control over the direction of our lives. Doesn’t that mean we need to think about ‘why’ we are feeling a certain way i.e. depressed or unhappy, in order to consider whether we need to change our life in some way? Sometimes circumstances or being around certain people can cause you to feel very unhappy and unless you think about it and plan to make positive changes then your unhappiness will continue.

Its also this puzzle about what comes first - the thought or the feeling. Does a feeling just arise and then we add thoughts onto it which makes it become bigger and feel worse, or do we have unhappy thoughts about something which then leads to our feeling unhappy and sad about it. Was Bhante Vimalaramsi only speaking in the context of when we are meditating and unpleasant feelings arise - and this is when we should try and just let them go instead of getting hooked in and attaching stories and reasons as to why they are there?

There is probably quite a straightforward answer to this I suspect, that I‘m just not getting - but being a newcomer to Buddhism and this very different way of thinking (and it is very different and its also really hard to put into practice!!) it does appear quite complicated at first reading and also a bit of a contradiction. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

Best Wishes

[viawbambutt]

Hi Aasha, presumably you are refering to the link 'What is Buddhism' at the beginning of the topic list in this forum - (for the benefit of other readers)

[ignonsoli]

Doesn’t that mean we need to think about ‘why’ we are feeling a certain way i.e. depressed or unhappy, in order to consider whether we need to change our life in some way?

Yes. Certainly. Without doubt. This is an external, social and/or behavioural matter.

Bhante Vimalaramsi is referring to the meditation context, when we embark on an 'inward' journey.

Its also this puzzle about what comes first - the thought or the feeling. Does a feeling just arise and then we add thoughts onto it which makes it become bigger and feel worse, or do we have unhappy thoughts about something which then leads to our feeling unhappy and sad about it.

Ultimately, feeling comes first. A simple example is physical hunger. First, there is the pain of hunger; second, the craving of hunger; and third, the thinking about hunger and obtaining food.

But, as you have pointed out, feelings & thoughts can generate eachother. For example, a thought or memory can generate feelings.

However, ultimately, this thought or memory is founded on a feeling. For example, someone said something hurtful to you in the past and that experience is embedded in your memory due to the feeling of the experience. But when it returns to your consciousness, as a memory in the here & now, it returns as a thought. But deep down in the subconscious, the memory is established there due to a feeling.

Kind regards

[PRengin]

Hi Aasha, rather than focusing on what comes first, it has been productive for me to examine the thought about the feeling - the clarity obtained from this has enabled me to move forward from experiencing distress due to high levels of anxiety, without having to use drugs.

[Hujkmlopes]

Hi Aasha,

I think Element has given you good "elements" to work with. Meditation is a very important aspect when a beginner is about so to learn how to watch and have careful awareness of our thoughts or mental formations. In Zazen we are to be aware of our body sensations, breathing, outside noise, inside noise, sensations thought the posture, the posture, feelings and our mental fabrications. Little by little this learning has to be brought into daily life issues. So, if during the day a feeling comes you can watch its fabrications or if a fabrication has arose you can bring awareness to its feeling letting go smoothly and letting to fade by itself.

[BartRonalds]

Hi,

Thanks for all your comments. As you said Kaarine, yes, the goal is to eventually be able to carry that awareness we develop during meditation practice over into our daily lives and put it to good use there and try and become more aware of what we are thinking and feeling on a moment-to-moment basis. Yes, that is the goal! I have to admit that I’ve not been very good at disciplining myself with regard to practice over the years, but I’m hoping to stick at it a bit better this time. I’m realizing the benefits and the importance of it more and more as the years are passing, and its really good to have found this community to share stuff with and just to offer one another support and encouragement along the way. I’ve got so much to learn but I’m a willing student!

What you were explaining Element about this connection between our unhappy memories and feelings which we may experience in the present day, and how they quite often originate from a much earlier instance of being hurt and how we’ve stored that painful ‘feeling’ away in our subconscious and it gets reactivated somehow by something we are thinking about or something which is said, I found that very interesting.

You all give me plenty to think about! My poor brain gets tired! Only joking…well not really!

Aasha

[GAGNAPPEAPH]

Kaarine, is Zazen meditation the same as Vipassana? What you’ve described of Zazen it sounds as though you take in awareness of your entire experiences - inner and outer - rather than focusing on one particular object? I’ve only ever done Mindfulness of Breathing and the Metta Bhavana techniques. Is it a more advanced meditation technique and not for relative beginners?

I listened to a talk on the web a while ago now which was all about Mindfulness Meditation. The man who was giving the talk said that when your mind wanders off from the object of attention while you are meditating, you should just try and take note of where it habitually goes to, and then gently bring it back to your breath or whatever you are focusing on. That way you are gaining self-awareness of your mind’s habitual patterns, but also stepping out of getting caught up in your thoughts. Is that what you meant when you were describing what you do in everyday life? Do you reach a stage where you are able to just ‘objectively’ recognize what you are thinking and feeling, and then move your attention back to whatever you are doing in the present moment? Is that what is meant by freeing yourself from attachment? Attachment to our thoughts and feelings?

When I woke up the other morning and felt a bit depressed, I tried out what Bhante Vimalaramsi suggested in his talk ‘What is Buddhism’, and just tried to accept the feeling for what is was - an unpleasant experience - and not think about why it was there or try and push it away forcefully - as I usually do. I felt staying with the feeling and just letting it go away on its own worked quite well - in fact the feeling disappeared faster than normal. I’m not sure if that is how I should have been dealing with it - outwith meditation practice - but it certainly worked and I felt better quicker. Although I was ‘staying with’ the negative experience rather than just pushing it away - I’m wondering if because I wasn‘t looking into why it was there in the first place, is this what you would call denial or escapism which leads to a lack of awareness? I was thinking about what andyrobyn said and how he finds it helpful to focus on the thoughts behind the unpleasant feeling. I feel I want to let the feeling go, and thinking about it keeps the feeling there longer.

Also this talk on mindfulness meditation spoke of depression and how when your mood goes down a bit, this can start triggering negative thoughts which can then escalate out of control. I was thinking of what Element said in connection with what came first, the thought or the feeling. Last night I was reading a bit about the limbic system in the brain and how emotions arise in this area of the brain in response to a variety of stimuli and then impulses travel to the cortex where we then interpret and make sense of those feelings. Its all a bit too heavy for me to understand fully but I was thinking that maybe its the dark or lack of light which affects my mood (stimuli) - since I’m completely different when I’m up and about - and this triggers off negative thoughts leading to a feeling of depression. Feeling > Thoughts > Feeling.

‘Living Buddha, Living Christ’ just arrived…thanks for recommendation Lazy Eye.

[pseusawbappem]

Kaarine, is Zazen meditation the same as Vipassana? What you’ve described of Zazen it sounds as though you take in awareness of your entire experiences - inner and outer - rather than focusing on one particular object?

Happily seems that Zazen is quite similar or very close to insight and mental tranquility. Sure, Zazen do not has any kind of particular object to be focused with, except, of course, breathing. We do not call it Samatha and Vipassana but Shi and Kan which are "to watch carefully" and to be concentrated. Both aspects at the same time are skilled through Zazen. We do not close eyes, we do not see anything or visualize anything, there is no need... we just watch mind, thoughts and how they arise and fade.

when your mind wanders off from the object of attention while you are meditating, you should just try and take note of where it habitually goes to, and then gently bring it back to your breath [...] Yes, right... as in Zazen... but breath... breathing is the clue and the posture, too. When mind wanders, again return to breath and mindfulness of posture. Posture in zazen has a lot of meanings...

Do you reach a stage where you are able to just ‘objectively’ recognize what you are thinking and feeling, and then move your attention back to whatever you are doing in the present moment? Is that what is meant by freeing yourself from attachment? Attachment to our thoughts and feelings? In Zen we have a saying... when eating, eat; when working, work. Is the same as saying... be aware on the here and now... remember not to get lost in wandering.

accept the feeling for what is was - an unpleasant experience - and not think about why it was there or try and push it away forcefully - as I usually do. Sure Aasha! At least that is the way that has worked better for me. At the beginning we discover that sadness (or any other emotion, desire, feeling, sensation, fabrication, thought, etc.) has come in "our" home; We didn't notice that. Let it be there. It will leave soon. After a while we started to notice when sadness (or whatever) wants to get in again and decide if we let it get in again...

Its all a bit too heavy for me to understand fully but I was thinking that maybe its the dark or lack of light which affects my mood (stimuli) - since I’m completely different when I’m up and about - and this triggers off negative thoughts leading to a feeling of depression. Feeling > Thoughts > Feeling. We are unaware of the association of feelings and mental fabrications. Zazen helps to untangle both and see them in a more dispassionate way.

Its all a bit too heavy for me to understand fully but I was thinking that maybe its the dark or lack of light which affects my mood (stimuli) Yes... it is important to be aware of how environment can interfere with our moods. I am very sensible about lack of light too. Gray rainy days don't help too much for me.

[ufUUZCnc]

Thank you Kaarine for what you explained to me about Zazen meditation.

. In Zen we have a saying... when eating, eat; when working, work. Is the same as saying... be aware on the here and now... remember not to get lost in wandering.

I am still very much a beginner, because although I do practice meditation and have done off and on for years, it hasn’t been on a regular, systematic basis so I haven’t been able to develop the skill of awareness of what is going on in my mind on a moment-to-moment basis yet, or the ability to quieten it when something is worrying me for instance. When I have too much to think about, this is when I tend to give up on the practice because I can’t sit still and the mind is running at 100mph

In a book on Buddhism I read that if you establish the right conditions then the result will arise. They were talking about the central principles of Buddhism and how everything changes in dependence upon conditions. This is where I feel I have to think seriously about whether to change my living conditions and move to an area where there is a Buddhist Centre nearby for me to visit and belong to. I realize that Cobalt was right in saying you can’t mix and match religions and I feel trying to do this is just causing inner conflict and is very unsettling.

This is what I have always preferred about Buddhism where it encourages the person to take responsibility for their own growth and to really think about reality and the fact we only have one life to live and we should live it mindfully and skilfully - making the most of every minute. Buddhism is all about ‘now’, not what may or may not happen after we die.

Rejoining this forum has been a kind of wake-up call encouraging me to ask myself what it is I really want out of life and question where I’m going - which is a good thing.

I hope its ok to post any questions that come up as I’m going along. I have lots of reading material to get through and lots of practice to engage in, so I appreciate the help and advice that anyone here can give me. Cheers.

[khjhkfggt]

I hope its ok to post any questions that come up as I’m going along

Of course its ok, Aasha !