[angelxmagic]

Hi BuckyG,

Keep in mind, The Four Noble Truths have traditionally been considered an "advanced" teaching.

I think that is true. However, there's a great saying about pariyatti (study) illuminating the path of the aspirant.

not be to hard on myself or worry about it too much when I'm in my WTF? state regarding the teachings.

Yes, I think its very important not to be too hard on oneself.

A

[artofeyyy]

I'm in my WTF? state regarding the teachings.

Hi BuckyG, sorry, Im just being courious... what is that state about?

[Cogebrego]

I practice what I can

I will say thought that the 4 Noble truths/3 marks/D.O. appear to me as what is Buddhism. That is they contain Buddhism completely and everything else is just interpretation/elaboration/commentary etc

[mXr8icOB]

When confused and overwhelmed by the Dhamma in these ways, recall the gradual training, below. Using reflexion, one knows where one is on the Path, and also thereby knows the next step.

MN 56 begins the gradual training: generosity, virtue, heaven & hell, the dangers of sensuality, the harm of defilements, the benefits of renunciation. Then, only after this conversation went well, the Buddha teaches Upali the Four Noble Truths. This is then Right View and the practice can begin wholeheartedly.

MN 107 continues expositing the gradual training all the way to nibbana.

[trorseIrripsy]

Hi BuckyG, sorry, Im just being courious... what is that state about?

mainly confusion and deep curiosity plus heedfulness (and all my empirical/sceptical/exegetical/exposotional/deconstructive/analytic/constructive/hermeneuitical methodology)

[RsQhyZyR]

Just out of curiosity, how much of Buddhist teachings do you understand and practise? In the micro view, enough for 'when eating, just eat, when sleeping, just sleep'
In the macro view, cessation of suffering.
Just want to know to what extent do you consider yourself followers of Buddhism To this extent...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....026.than.html
As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, to what extent is one a lay follower?"
"Jivaka, when one has gone to the Buddha for refuge, has gone to the Dhamma for refuge, and has gone to the Sangha for refuge, then to that extent is one a lay follower." And as closely as possible... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....026.than.html
"And to what extent, lord, is one a virtuous lay follower?"
"Jivaka, when one abstains from taking life, from stealing, from sexual misconduct, from lying, and from fermented & distilled drinks that lead to heedlessness, then to that extent is one a virtuous lay follower." And most importantly this... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....026.than.html
"And to what extent, lord, is one a lay follower who practices both for his own benefit & the benefit of others?"
"Jivaka, when a lay follower himself is consummate in conviction and encourages others in the consummation of conviction;
when he himself is consummate in virtue and encourages others in the consummation of virtue;
when he himself is consummate in generosity and encourages others in the consummation of generosity;
when he himself desires to see the monks and encourages others to see the monks;
when he himself wants to hear the true Dhamma and encourages others to hear the true Dhamma;
when he himself habitually remembers the Dhamma he has heard and encourages others to remember the Dhamma they have heard;
when he himself explores the meaning of the Dhamma he has heard and encourages others to explore the meaning of the Dhamma they have heard; when he himself,
knowing both the Dhamma & its meaning, practices the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma and encourages others to practice the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma:
then to that extent he is a lay follower who practices both for his own benefit and for the benefit of others." ...honestly, I don't understand half of what is discussed here With study, practice and realization, you'll catch up...

[FourEsters]

Just out of curiosity, how much of Buddhist teachings do you understand and practise? I find Buddhism very complex (if we get into the details) and I can't get my head around it. I understand the basics such as Four Noble Truths, Eightfold Noble Path and Five Precepts and I use them as a guide on how to live an ethical life. That is pretty much it. After reading the posts on this forum, I realise that many members are very knowledgeable and understand the religion profoundly (honestly, I don't understand half of what is discussed here).

Just want to know to what extent do you consider yourself followers of Buddhism

Hi peen, much discussion about what is written in the Pali canon, or where ever is not the actual practice of Buddhism ... no need to be intimidated and judge yourself against such discussions which are rife online ..... attend offline centres and meet practitioners if you are able.

[doxinwasido]

...what is that state [WTF?] about?

I feel I owe you a less flippant response, KA. More specifically, this "state" sometimes involves doubt and conviction in several ways. Is the Pali Canon (PC) reliable and/or worthy of respect? If so, why, how? If not, how? Why not? Etc.... Are teachings outside the PC reliable, etc.... Does the PC trump other teachings? Which translation(s) are best? How much Pali should I learn, if any? I'm all ready pretty nerdy.

Sometimes it involves a struggle over the meaning of a passage, or passages, or sutta, etc.... Sometimes that entails comparing/contrasting different translations, interpretations, commentary, etc....

Curiosity satiated?

b@eze
bg

[formobilagsw]

Hi BuckyG, I suspect my curiosity would be one of the last desires satiated ....

fortunately, even as we get older there are still many experiences which we can have for

the first time which inspire us and harm no -one

[sbrscnds]

GREAT! Now I have that to look forward to too!

[somamasoso]

I feel I owe you a less flippant response, KA.

Thanks!

I was asking you about because I am new at the Pali Dhamma and I know I am being over enthusiastic about discovering the freshness of the Pali.

Why?

Well... I was into Soto Zen literature. Mainly the Shobogenzo. A beautiful teaching. Japanese approach to Buddhism fits me well. It is a wonderful teaching and a great tradition but now, that I am looking more and more into the Pali, I have the impression that the teachings there are quite different in terms of clarity and directness; in terms of what has to be done.

Because I have never been into any kind of religion, I was really disappointed when I saw the teachings of the Buddha here and there turned into a religion with all the things religions have. I approached Soto tradition because it was really austere in terms of religious rites and ceremonies. Also the relationship with the teacher in Soto is against the idea of worshiping a guru as happens in other traditions.

I have found the Pali as a very clear teaching in terms of what has to be done, step by step and with an outstanding clarity. Of course I am just through some teachings now because the Pali is huge. I am not in a rush to know it all but by know I am through Bhikkhu Bodhi's "In the Buddha's Words". The Pali has given me what I needed... a path out from rites, ceremonies, superstitions and religious believes with enough clarity to know well what has to be done.

Curiosity satiated?

Yes, thanks BuckyG!

[insoneeri]

You're welcome KA. I too am new at Pali and love making Pali Dhamma discoveries. I'm getting ready to read the Bhikkhu Bhodi book (and try to listen to his lectures on it). My introduction to the Pali Dhamma was through The Wings to Awakening & other works by Ajaan Geoff (Thanissaro Bhikkhu) along with his corresponding dhamma talks.

What do you, or anyone, think of this Aj. Sumedho quote? "We are not trying to confirm somebody's view about the Pali Canon, but using the Pali Canon to explore our own experience.... Someone might say, 'Maybe there was never any Buddha; maybe it was just a myth.' But it doesn't matter, because we don't need to prove that Gotama Buddha actually lived; that's not the issue, is it? We are not trying to prove historical facts, but to recognize that what we are actually experiencing now is like this" (Intuitive Awareness, pp. 136, 140).


bg

[DenisMoor]

You're welcome KA.

Thanks,

What do you, or anyone, think of this Aj. Sumedho quote? "We [...] but using the Pali Canon to explore our own experience.... [...]

That is exactly the kind of feeling I have had the first time I did an honest try to the Pali Dhamma. And because of this, it is irrelevant who has written it at all. Personally, I do believe in a Buddha of bones and flesh that past by as we will past by. I am not a religious person so to think in metaphysical Buddhas and Buddhas to come and so and so... do not fulfills me. To believe in a fleshy man is, IMO, much more important than fairy tales, because it give you the certainty that anybody can realize the path, and that the path is about the here and now.

By the way, I really appreciate the Sumedho insight about the Pali Dhamma. Is just great. Also this guys, the Thai Forest Tradition, are great because the do not seem to need worshiping like teachers of other traditions that seem to have so huge egos as kind of superheros or outstanding gurus. The teachings of Aj. sumedho and others alike are clear, simple and direct.

[Ufkkrxcq]

When confused and overwhelmed by the Dhamma in these ways, recall the gradual training, below. Using reflexion, one knows where one is on the Path, and also thereby knows the next step.

MN 56 begins the gradual training: generosity, virtue, heaven & hell, the dangers of sensuality, the harm of defilements, the benefits of renunciation. Then, only after this conversation went well, the Buddha teaches Upali the Four Noble Truths. This is then Right View and the practice can begin wholeheartedly.

Upali begins the conversation as a hostile interlocutor, and, after being swayed by the Buddha's reasoning, is delivered the "gradual training" and:

When he knew that the householder Upali’s mind [380] was ready, receptive, free from hindrances, elated, and confident, he expounded to him the teaching special to the Buddhas: suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the path. Just as a clean cloth with all marks removed would take dye evenly, so too, while the householder Upali sat there, the spotless immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in him: “All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.” Then the householder Upali saw the Dhamma, attained the Dhamma, understood the Dhamma, fathomed the Dhamma; he crossed beyond doubt, did away with perplexity, gained intrepidity, and became independent of others in the Teacher’s Dispensation.589 Then he said to the Blessed One: “Now, venerable sir, we must go. We are busy and have much to do.” All in the course of a single conversation.

MN 107 continues expositing the gradual training all the way to nibbana. The Buddha gives a partial description of the meditative practice here -- all of which is done under the umbrella of an understanding of the 4NT as we already see in MN 56.

[hellenmoranov]

a fleshy man...

that's a great way to put it! And I concur totally with what you said about the Forest Tradition. Ajahn Sumedho is a BS detector par excellence (of my BS...don't know about others). The irony for me is that their humility makes me actually trust them as leaders, which is a weird feeling to me because I definitely have "authority issues." LOL!

There is dukkha... and dukkha should be welcomed. This is my new interpretation...! How's that? Try that one. You can experiment with these different words. You don't have to think, "Pali scriptures say 'understand', they don't say 'welcome'!" Pali Scriptures don't say 'understand', they use a Pali word...we translate as 'understand'. Maybe we don't understand what 'understand' means. Did you ever think about that? Maybe we don't understand our own language. We're so limited to a particular narrow view of the word 'understand' that we can't really expand it. If we have a broader view then we can experiment with the words. Just observe the effect."

Ajahn Sumedho, Intuitive Awareness, p.79. , my emphases
b@eze

[MARMELADINA]

I definitely have "authority issues."

Sounds great... me too!

I define my self as an "autarchist"

The irony for me is that their humility makes me actually trust them as leaders, which is a weird feeling [...] Yes, I know about that feeling. But I think that in the case of such guys they, if authentic teachers, will never lead you into a kind of "worship a guru" way of teaching, that happens in other traditions. Also honest Zen, too, at least in some Soto schools, discourage highly the worshiping of teachers with students. I have found that same aim in the way some Thai Forest teachers taught the Dhamma.

When a teaching is open, clear, simple exposed and direct to the issue of Dukkha, take it for sure that that teacher is vaccinating you against worshiping. On the contrary, when a teaching is "esoteric", hidden, allegorical, highly sophisticated, sold as something really unique... hm mm... behind that is the need of worshiping and a high cult to the person of the teacher and the teaching.

Teachings have to be taught for liberation... including from the teacher.

[addisonnicogel]

Namaste,

I've gone right back to the beginning with my study (even though I've never really passed novice stage )

I try to understand and remember the Four Noble Truths and apply the Noble Eightfold Path daily. I also try to adhere to the Precepts. For me thus far, it is enough and I agree with the sentiments that a lot of reading can confuse. I would like to read the Pali Canon, but I do not feel now is the right time. I am busy trying to practise mindfulness meditation each night and to keep Dhamma at the foremost of my mind during the day.

Soon I hope to ramp up my practise.

In metta,
Raven

[Ecurrexchangess]

I define my self as an "autarchist"

[Affolfembonge]

I've gone right back to the beginning with my study (even though I've never really passed novice stage )

I try to understand and remember the Four Noble Truths and apply the Noble Eightfold Path daily. I also try to adhere to the Precepts. For me thus far, it is enough and I agree with the sentiments that a lot of reading can confuse. I would like to read the Pali Canon, but I do not feel now is the right time. I am busy trying to practise mindfulness meditation each night and to keep Dhamma at the foremost of my mind during the day.

Soon I hope to ramp up my practise.

:

Sounds good, Raven !