[Pwy9egVW]

EDIT: did many of you have so many questions like me when you started learning about Buddhism?

Of course. Still I have. I am still a started learner of the historical Buddha teachings

IMO the right answers can be found through meditation and the solicitous and heedfull reading of the teachings of the historical Buddha (the ones that are given through the Pali Canon).

[Finanziamento]

More or less, im asking if someone who is generally good (but not wholly good) can still achieve enlightenment eventually?

IMO to be generally good it is OK; but I think that the Buddha Dhamma goes deeper than just being generally good. It is about discernment and mindfullness; more under the meaning of right view and wholesome acctions.

(perhaps only one who is enlightened can answer this question?)

perhaps... as I am not I only can have an approach to the answer

[PekHyvac]

Well im glad all of you also had many questions when you started as well. I was worried I was perhaps being too analytical/literal. (Though I am aware analytical thinking is a big aspect of Buddhism, which is one of the major reasons I turned towards it, as opposed to "blind faith" in other religions).

As for the aspect on vegetarianism... Does everyone agree here agree you do not have to be vegetarian to fully follow the noble eightfold path? I think this topic may have differing opinions throughout the Buddhist community from what ive seen so far.

I read somewhere the opposing arguement "bugs and other life must be killed with pesticide for plants to grow as well", but I suppose it is possible to strictly eat 100% organic naturally grown fruits/veggies, but not possible to eat meat without having the animal die.

Furthermore, Buddha mentions staying away from unwholesome work, and includes being a butcher in that description. Is that an outdated view, or still commonly accepted today?

Im also curious as to why plants arent considered equal "life" as bugs/animals? How is ripping a potato out of the ground any different than killing a cow?

[VYholden]

As for the aspect on vegetarianism... Does everyone agree here agree you do not have to be vegetarian to fully follow the noble eightfold path? I think this topic may have differing opinions throughout the Buddhist community from what ive seen so far.
For monks and nuns they have to eat whatever is put in their bowl, I think that even means rotting flesh if it is put in there (not human flesh)

From my opinion I think it is part of training to as not to follow the path of liking and disliking and instead of being mindful and aware of whatever comes

They then can eat meat, unless


meat should not be eaten under three circumstances: when it is seen or heard or suspected (that a living being has been purposely slaughtered for the eater); these, Jivaka, are the three circumstances in which meat should not be eaten, Jivaka! I declare there are three circumstances in which meat can be eaten: when it is not seen or heard or suspected (that a living being has been purposely slaughtered for the eater); Jivaka, I say these are the three circumstances in which meat can be eaten. —Jivaka Sutta, MN 55
For laymen its a bit more difficult to decide. One should not strangle a chicken to feed oneself, for example, but is buying meat from a supermarket allowed?


Myself I am vegetarian but if I am offered meat by a friend or family and I know it hasn't been killed for me, I will eat it



Furthermore, Buddha mentions staying away from unwholesome work, and includes being a butcher in that description. Is that an outdated view, or still commonly accepted today? The intention to kill will lead to unwholesome mind states, so I would say it is still valid

Im also curious as to why plants arent considered equal "life" as bugs/animals? How is ripping a potato out of the ground any different than killing a cow? Have never thought of this, thanks for raising it lol

[bugagasikaga]

As for the aspect on vegetarianism... Does everyone agree here agree you do not have to be vegetarian to fully follow the noble eightfold path? I think this topic may have differing opinions throughout the Buddhist community from what ive seen so far.

I think it is a personal decision to eat or not to eat meat. I do not eat meat as much as I can. Sometimes, as Craig has told, you are invited to an event where meat is offered and then I ate it. I was a big fan of eating meat. It happend that I needed to go to a slaughter house. What I saw there make me understand what happens if we ate meat. I stop eating meat.

Furthermore, Buddha mentions staying away from unwholesome work, and includes being a butcher in that description. Is that an outdated view, or still commonly accepted today?

Maybe if a butcher gets the understanding of the teachings of the Buddha deeply he will stop doing that and if he can look for other options for living. From my perspective I think is an unwholesome work, in a very subtle degree, but it is.

From the perspective of Human Biology we do not need meat to keep ourselves healthy. The needs of our body can be met perfectly with vegetables.

How is ripping a potato out of the ground any different than killing a cow?

I don't know if [ripping] a potato suffers but I am sure that the cow does in a very high degree. I choose the potato.

[amotoustict]

I don't know if [ripping] a potato suffers but I am sure that the cow does in a very high degree. I choose the potato.

Its not that the potato suffers, but that you are killing it regardless .

Your point on slaughter houses also brings to light differences from which countries we come from. Sure, in some, animals are still directly slain by a human's hand. In others, cattle, etc. is rounded up into big rooms and gassed "harmlessly" (supposedly feeling no pain, suffering, or awareness that they are being killed).

So can it be said that some forms of meat more humanely 'obtained' is more acceptable than others?

[pavlik]

Its not that the potato suffers, but that you are killing it regardless

We all need to eat. Then comes what we choose: the potato or the cow. If we choose the cow I'm sure that the cow will suffer much more that the potato. We can choose. Animals do not.

In others, cattle, etc. is rounded up into big rooms and gassed "harmlessly" (supposedly feeling no pain, suffering, or awareness that they are being killed).

The slaughter house I needed to visit was for meat exportation. It had many sophisticated means to kill... however, and I know it sounds ridiculous, I could feel and see the fear of that animals in their eyes and the way they show stress before killing them. I am not a cow to tell what it feels to be killed in a gas chamber but I think it would not be a very nice experience. About meat eating there are two issues to be considered: The first is that people eat meat because they like; meat is not needed in a healthy diet. The second is that not eating meat is a very personal choice. I am not trying to change minds about this but just to expouse why I give up eating meat.

So can it be said that some forms of meat more humanely 'obtained' is more acceptable than others?

Of course, if it is about killing, some means seem more acceptable than others but IMO any chosen mean leads to some amount of unnecessary suffering. The reflection here is that meat is not needed in our diet.

[cxddfrxc]

You make good points Kaarine, and I most definitely agree that killing an animal is worse than killing a plant.

[DoctorNelsonOnten]

If you want to see karma in action, simply look at how sound travels, what it is, and how we hear it.

[gactanync]

.

The Buddha said:

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma.

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The cessation of kamma... The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said."

(AN 6.63 - Nibbedhika Sutta: Penetrative)

[gymnAnemoe]

The thing about the Buddha's teaching on karma (and intention) is this: karma is the action that results from intention -- there's good karma, bad karma, mixed or neutral karma, and the karma that ends karma -- that last one is the intention to study and practice in order to go all the way to the point where everything that needs to be understood has been seen and understood first hand.

The process is one of seeing in detail how karma works, and seeing enough of its workings that it makes us sick of that sort of behavior so we just stop doing it. Bit by bit. Keep examining our lives in terms of what we're taught; see through the nonsense; sick of the nonsense... stop doing it. Over and over until we've removed all the nonsense from every aspect of our lives -- and don't ever stop looking at our behavior so it doesn't creep back in.

But the main point here is that the idea is to end karma. karma is a bad thing; even good karma is bad for you. But we can't just learn a bunch of rules and stop karma that way. karma gets produced by the less-than-ideal intention that is created from our ignorance of why we do what we do.

Once you've stopped karma, then whether you're a vegetarian or not isn't the question. (actually by that point there won't be questions but I'll pretend there are) The question will be: do you see what you are doing? are you aware of why you are doing it? The actions that result from well examined intentions will continue to be non-karma-producing actions. (That's the theory anyway.)

Over the course of examining our lives and recognizing a lot of normally unquestioned behavior that comes from normally unnoticed assumptions about who and what we are, we change; the intention behind our behavior changes. Not because we force ourselves to Do The Right Things, but just because we are seeing things more clearly. If we are persistent and have long enough to apply ourselves to that practice, eventually we replace all the old imperfectly functioning intentions with *new* and *improved* versions.

The great thing is that because it is a process -- I suspect there will have been very few cases of instant enlightenment followed immediately by totally clear intention -- it is something we can all benefit from every step of the way. We don't even have to set a goal of Total Enlightenment or Complete Escape From Rebirth to achieve the goal (it's probably actually helpful to avoid setting such goals)... just keep practicing and see if life doesn't get a lot less confusing over the course of time.

[rolex-buy]

nowheat, interesting points. Do you (anyone here, not just you specifically nowheat) really think it is possible for us to break free of Karma? Thinking about it, even being enlightened, just mere pressence can bother other people and create negative actions. For example, if an enlightened person is sitting in a public park, meditating under a tree. Assuming they are physically out of people's way and stuff... Just seeing someone meditating can agitate others.. Perhaps their beliefs/religion doesnt accept that, or them.. Perhaps that sight can give them anger etc. Is that not creating karma from the actions of just even simply meditating in public?

I dont know if that even makes sense lol... But even the Buddha himself, did he not hurt others along his path? He had to abandon his family and stuff. Granted, those actions were before he had total enlightenment.

Anyway, nowheat, your comments bring me to this question: Can a human really 'surpass' beyond the effects of karma? Even if you are aware of every action/intention, the implications and results of them, etc... We always still contribute karma to the world, are we not? Even just going to the bathroom, and using toilet paper, which a tree had to die and be processed to make... aren't our actions causing effects indirectly all the time, simply by existing... no?

[TaliaJack]

To Balgore, who said: "Anyway, nowheat, your comments bring me to this question: Can a human really 'surpass' beyond the effects of karma? Even if you are aware of every action/intention, the implications and results of them, etc... We always still contribute karma to the world, are we not? Even just going to the bathroom, and using toilet paper, which a tree had to die and be processed to make... aren't our actions causing effects indirectly all the time, simply by existing... no? "

Karma isn't impact on others. You don't have responsibility for their reaction to you. It is just your responsibility to have your intentions come from a selfless place. The theory of karma doesn't say that when you are no longer producing karma, no one will ever get mad at you, that you will never have a negative impact on anyone, or even that nothing bad will ever happen to you, or that you will be clairvoyant and be able to do the absolutely right thing in every situation. It doesn't say that the results of your actions will always turn out to be what you might hope they would be.

The *only* thing karma is talking about is whether we can get a really good grip on why we do what we do and thereby stop doing things out of ignorance (a particular ignorance, not just any old ignorance).

As for whether I think it is possible or not, theoretically, it seems doable. I've already caught teensy tiny actions of mine that don't come from self-interest, and had moments when I just took in life and didn't make every moment about *me*. Knowing that it's possible to do that in microscopic amounts should mean that with enough practice we can do it more and more until we've gotten really good at it. And at least one person I trust has said that he has managed the trick.

But I have no direct experience with being at the far end of the learning curve, so I can't say for sure.

[freddyujnf]

Also, Balgore, yes, the Buddha hurt people along the path. Leaving his family behind is not the only example, and they didn't all happen before enlightenment. When he was a teacher, he gave a talk on the foulness of the body then left to go on a personal retreat. A group of young disciples took the teaching and ran with it. When the Buddha returned from his retreat, the sangha was quite empty; many monks had killed themselves. Being fully enlightened didn't make it so that he could perfectly execute everything (though some embroidering of his stories might make us think it should have).

His cousin and attendant Ananda also suffered a great deal during the course of the Buddha's life, especially when the Buddha fell ill, and when he died. But this is Ananda's karma at play, nothing the Buddha is held responsible for. Ananda was quite attached to his cousin, and that attachment was the source of his suffering.

[Unlinozistimi]

Karma in a nutshell

1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.



(Dhammapada Ch 1)

[Rffkwfct]

Thank you for posting this reference.
If I say that 'I cannot exist' without producing some cause & effect, then this assumes that "I" is a substantial thing. So, "I" and karma are both dependent on each other for their arising. Obviously, Buddha stirred up a great deal of cause & effect, otherwise 2500 years later we wouldn't be having this discussion. So, I tend to think that the question 'can we be free from karma' is the wrong question.

Perhaps a better way to look at this would be to ask, 'can we be free from the EFFECTS of karma' ---meaning, can we cross through a stream of cause & effect without being washed away into cyclic existence, into the 'ocean of samsara'?

I mentioned before that if you look at how sound occurs, this gives a good model for how karma & rebirth happen. When something (a tree falling in the woods?) moves or hits something else, it causes air molecules to smack into each other, like billiard balls, each one sending a nearly identical vibration to the next one, until that vibration hits your ear drum. It is only in the mind that we "hear" that vibration, or a recording of that vibration, as "sound". Likewise, the experience of "me" is produced, as the quote from the Dhammapada suggests, as a continuous chain reaction, experienced as a substantial thing by (or in, or as) the mind. That is when the discussion of karma begins.

So, I think we have to look at the idea of 'being free from karma' more in terms of not being trapped in karmic snares. If some unexpected negative thing happens, yesterday it might have gotten you all upset, but today you see that it is empty of any true existence- it's not a big deal after all, and it has no effect on you. So, it doesn't leave a strong impact. You don't dwell on it, you don't lose sleep over it and it doesn't shape you you will become in the future.

Karma in a nutshell

1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.

[Speareerfug]

So, I think we have to look at the idea of 'being free from karma' more in terms of not being trapped in karmic snares. If some unexpected negative thing happens, yesterday it might have gotten you all upset, but today you see that it is empty of any true existence- it's not a big deal after all, and it has no effect on you. So, it doesn't leave a strong impact. You don't dwell on it, you don't lose sleep over it and it doesn't shape [who] you will become in the future.

Great post fojiao2. Right to the point.

[PlanTaleks]

Yeah great feedback guys. I can definitely agree that we can be free of the effects of karma. That makes much more sense than 'not causing karma'.

Thanks

[RlUbQU3R]

Karma is choice. Chosen thought, chosen speech, chosen action. The fruit of karma is consequence.
Hence, your choices and their consequences. Act skillfully, and wholesome consequences (generally) result.

With regards to enlightenment, you choose to think, speak and act in accordance with the teachings of impermanence, not-self, dukkha, the (Five) Precepts, the Four Noble Truths and Noble Eightfold Path and the like, and the consequence is that the mind is lead away from a state of clinging to having (Supramundane/Noble) Right View, where craving and clinging drop away as the mind discerns its true nature and the nature of all things as nothing but a cloud of change, ungraspable, causing suffering to chase after.

Understanding choice and consequence is how we take responsibility for ourselves, as well as the reason that the Noble Eightfold Path actually works. If you choose to follow this path and exert Right Effort, it lets you accept reality and let go of your striving and craving. Looking for some special/magical/supernatural meaning to life is what got us into such problems that we have now, and belief systems. See the simplicity right in front of you, here and now, because that's the only place you'll ever find Nirvana.